Swedish church about gayrights

[RoffeDH]

The swedish church have decided to let gay couples be able to get "married", well not yet, they will have a seremonial service so that a priest may give a blessing on their relationship. Not everyone is as happy as I am on this dessision since some here belive that homosexuallity is wrong, witch i don't agree with. and this dissision is one step closer to homosexual marriges wich I'm very pleased with... What would have happend if the churches in America did the same thing? What do you think would be the best thing to do.

[Rocketqueen]

:) im happy yes they should have their own places to worship my friend their not excepted any where else as unto many of Gods childrens Are Isa. 43.7 even every one that is called by my name for i have created him for my Glory i have formed him yea i have made Isa 61.9 and their seed shall be known among the Gentiles and thier off spring among the people all that see theme shall acknowlege theme that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed

[metalanus]

I would say its impossible to be a christian and label yourself as a homosexual. Christian as in believes the bible is teh inerrant word of God. However it is possible to be a christian and struggle with homosexual thoughts and feelings. I am doing research on homosexuals who became christians and sought help to control there homosexual compulsions and desires. These people had a conversion type experience and homosexaulity over time became less fullfilling to them.

one thing to keep in mind when discussing homosexuality is that sexual attraction is dimesional and each person has a ratio of homosexual/heterosexual attraction. We have been moving toward an either or mentality. What I have found in research is that most gays have some heterosexual attraction and many are capable of heterosexual marriage however they may still be troubled by same sex desires in that.

[The Lithium]

The swedish church have decided to let gay couples be able to get "married", well not yet, they will have a seremonial service so that a priest may give a blessing on their relationship. Not everyone is as happy as I am on this dessision since some here belive that homosexuallity is wrong, witch i don't agree with. and this dissision is one step closer to homosexual marriges wich I'm very pleased with... What would have happend if the churches in America did the same thing? What do you think would be the best thing to do.
About damn time then! Everyone should be "allowed" to love who ever they want! And the church shouldn't stand in the way of it! I think people who's against gay couples is people who've never met one! One of my family's best friends is gay, and he's one of the sweetest persons I know!

[The Lithium]

I would say its impossible to be a christian and label yourself as a homosexual. Christian as in believes the bible is teh inerrant word of God.
I'm not a Christian myself, (not at all). But didn't God create human beings? And didn't God create love? Are you saying God didn't create the love between men and men and women and women?

[RMadd]

here's my take on the issue: I have nothing against homosexuals as people. I happen to know and work with (or have known & worked with) more than just a few. In any matter, I agree with Metalanus on this: it's impossible to be a homosexual and Christian at the same time. Homosexuality is singled out as being one of the sins of which the people of Sodom and Gomorrha are guilty. It's mentioned other times in the Bible as being immoral and/or sinful as well. Now, because God views all sins alike (no sin is worse than any other: killing your father is just as bad as stealing a piece of candy from 7-11, in God's eyes anyway, because they both go against his will regardless of the "severity"), I do no claim to be better than any homosexual. I commit sins daily (lusting after the fairer sex, etc, etc, etc) of which I always need repent. God also says that, if we're truly repentant of our sins, then we must not commit those sins any longer. So, one of two things happens with Christian homosexuals: (1) they either make their homosexual sins known, and then subsequently abrogate the Lord's wishes by committing the same sins over, or (2) they are merely unrepentant and go on in their sinful ways free of any guilt (at least in their eyes). This would be akin to me killing my father or stealing a candy bar, then either asking God's forgiveness and subsequently killing my mother or stealing another candy bar, or merely not feeling guilty or a need to repent for killing my father or stealing a candy bar. Now, I admit that I have often repented of the aforementioned lust issue, and yet commit it again and again, but this is certainly something I've been working on much more as of late.

Now to the slightly more pertinent issue of gay marriage: I, naturally, do not accept homosexual marriages or unions as legitimate. The way a leader at my church back home put it, we could solve this issue by spreading God's love to everyone so that everyone might know God and return from their sins (including homosexuality, among a great many others), but since that isn't very likely to occur in a short period of time, the quickest way to curb America from going the way of Sodom & Gomorrha (perhaps I'm the only one that sees this, what with all our immorality) is to enact legislation that prohibits such immoral behavior.

[Chase]

I completely agree with you Ryan... on everything you said. Also, the lust issue is a sin that I have repeatedly committed... and something that I have really tried to work on. Bottom line though: Christianity and homosexuality aren't synonymous with one another. That's like saying a sober person is an alcoholic. Anyway, I have nothing against homosexual people... I also work and know quite a few of them. But I in no way agree with the lifestyle. I'm not judging them, I'm simply saying that I believe it's an unhealthy lifestyle.

God still loves murderers... but that doesn't make murdering acceptable.

[The Lithium]

A comment on Ryan's post: Men made God! Not the other way around! Well, I guess I can't change the bible, but I don't agree with anything you just said.

But I in no way agree with the lifestyle. I'm not judging them, I'm simply saying that I believe it's an unhealthy lifestyle.
Unhealthy lifestyle? Are you actually saying these words? How is it unhealthy to love the one you love, and not being ashamed of it? How is it not healthy to have the courage to follow your heart, even though you know about half the society is looking down at you? How is it unhealthy to be open and happy? How?

God still loves murderers... but that doesn't make murdering acceptable.
So homosexuality shouldn't be acceptable?

[Chase]

A comment on Ryan's post: Men made God! Not the other way around! Well, I guess I can't change the bible, but I don't agree with anything you just said.


Unhealthy lifestyle? Are you actually saying these words? How is it unhealthy to love the one you love, and not being ashamed of it? How is it not healthy to have the courage to follow your heart, even though you know about half the society is looking down at you? How is it unhealthy to be open and happy? How?


So homosexuality shouldn't be acceptable?

Homosexuals have a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases. Some people call unprotected gay sex to be unhealthy. It's unhealthy to be sexually promiscuous with partners of the SAME sex. So to answer your questions, it is unhealthy to be a homosexual with a sex life.

And yes... homosexuality isn't acceptable in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

[metalanus]

actually I have read a study in a medical journal that suggest that anal sex is unhealthy with or without condem use.

as far as churches. we tend to try to get them to change there homosexuality imediatly. If we approached them like anyone else and they accepted the biblical message of salvation then there attitudes about seeing themselves as gay would change as a result but might take some time. we are all guilty of sin and teh salvation message is the same for everyone. Its just that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that is contradictory of the bible and to label oneself as gay and pursue that is an open rejection of christianity. We cant control all of our sexual lustful thoughts because the flesh is strong but we just like homosexuals can choice to act on those or dwell on them.

I don

[Ana4Stapp]

Unhealthy lifestyle? Are you actually saying these words? How is it unhealthy to love the one you love, and not being ashamed of it? How is it not healthy to have the courage to follow your heart, even though you know about half the society is looking down at you? How is it unhealthy to be open and happy? How?


I was (am) so tired that I had decided to post a reply in that thread only tomorrow, but when I saw ... THIS POST...

WOW...



I LOVED YOUR WORDS, Lith !!!!! :luv: ;)

[Mulletman]

It would require "an act of God" (pun intended) to get the churches to permit homosexual union. As for the states, not that difficult, just a slight majority of the vote.

[Rocketqueen]

I'm not a Christian myself, (not at all). But didn't God create human beings? And didn't God create love? Are you saying God didn't create the love between men and men and women and women? A FRICKING MEN Its A Sin Of Coures but no greater than anybody eles GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THESE THINGS but we dont know that if we keep looking at beam after beam and not the eye of grace and love So Lith 1 Cor :D i thank God always on your behalf For The Grace Of God Be With You which is given to ya by christ our Lord that in everything you are enriched by him :D in all uttrence and knowlege even as the testimony of christ that was confirmed to you :) now i beeseech from such such and such by the name of our Lord jesus christ that ye all speak the same thing and there be no divison but that ye be perfectly minded together in the same mind and jugement :D MUHEHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA :rofl: :D :flamer:

[RMadd]

A comment on Ryan's post: Men made God! Not the other way around! Well, I guess I can't change the bible, but I don't agree with anything you just said.


Unhealthy lifestyle? Are you actually saying these words? How is it unhealthy to love the one you love, and not being ashamed of it? How is it not healthy to have the courage to follow your heart, even though you know about half the society is looking down at you? How is it unhealthy to be open and happy? How?


So homosexuality shouldn't be acceptable?
I suppose if we can't convince you that your first comment here is incorrect, then we cannot persuade you to agree with any of the arguments we've made in this thread. I'm sorry.

What's all this BS about following your heart and such? Seriously. Try following your heart Lith, see what it's really telling you, and see where you wind up. God's waiting for you.

[RMadd]

A FRICKING MEN Its A Sin Of Coures but no greater than anybody eles GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THESE THINGS but we dont know that if we keep looking at beam after beam and not the eye of grace and love So Lith 1 Cor :D i thank God always on your behalf For The Grace Of God Be With You which is given to ya by christ our Lord that in everything you are enriched by him :D in all uttrence and knowlege even as the testimony of christ that was confirmed to you :) now i beeseech from such such and such by the name of our Lord jesus christ that ye all speak the same thing and there be no divison but that ye be perfectly minded together in the same mind and jugement :D MUHEHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA :rofl: :D :flamer:
Zion1010/Creedsis/Rocketqueen... I really don't understand you sometimes. I mean, I actually see what you're getting at here, but how can you claim to be a Christian and yet basically ignore half of God's "plan?" Yes, love is a good thing, but God really prefers (very very very strongly encourages) that it be between man and woman. Like I said above, He burned S & G to the ground, and I don't think it's any coincidence that homosexuality is one of their sins listed. Yes, I guess it's love, but it's not the kind that God wants from us as people.

[The Lithium]

And yes... homosexuality isn't acceptable in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism.
Well, maybe it's time we stoped listening to a book that was written before the Middle Ages? Something about 2000 years ago, I suppose.

I LOVED YOUR WORDS, Lith !!!!! :luv: ;)
Thank you, I'm glad you support me in whatever I post! :D

I suppose if we can't convince you that your first comment here is incorrect, then we cannot persuade you to agree with any of the arguments we've made in this thread. I'm sorry.
No, as I said. You cannot make me believe in something that was written by men thousands of years ago!

What's all this BS about following your heart and such? Seriously. Try following your heart Lith, see what it's really telling you, and see where you wind up. God's waiting for you.
What a small and sad man you are! Are you trying to tell me that I'm gay or living my life wrong? Maybe "unhealthy"? God is something men made up to make life and death a little easier!

[Ana4Stapp]

I would say its impossible to be a christian and label yourself as a homosexual. Christian as in believes the bible is teh inerrant word of God. However it is possible to be a christian and struggle with homosexual thoughts and feelings. I am doing research on homosexuals who became christians and sought help to control there homosexual compulsions and desires. These people had a conversion type experience and homosexaulity over time became less fullfilling to them.

one thing to keep in mind when discussing homosexuality is that sexual attraction is dimesional and each person has a ratio of homosexual/heterosexual attraction. We have been moving toward an either or mentality. What I have found in research is that most gays have some heterosexual attraction and many are capable of heterosexual marriage however they may still be troubled by same sex desires in that.

and this way...they are renouncing to happiness? Is this? I cant believe you are saying that...

I have two friends who are homosexuals, and boy... they are GREAT GREAT people!

[Ana4Stapp]

I What's all this BS about following your heart and such? Seriously. Try following your heart Lith, see what it's really telling you, and see where you wind up. God's waiting for you.

I cant believe in a God who condems any kind of love...because GOD IS LOVE ;)

and also following a heart is a BS? Really?...Its so sad hearing these words...


Thank you, I'm glad you support me in whatever I post! :D

lol! what can I do if you always say EXACTLY what I think ? ;)

[Chase]

Lith, the Bible was written over 2,000 years ago... you genius.

Buddhism has been around even longer.

And again... gay sex is VERY unhealthy. I don't know if they care about STDs in Sweden, but here in the States it's a very serious issue. That right there has nothing to do with religion.

[Ana4Stapp]

Actually STD is a very important issue related to any promiscuous behaviour not only to homosexual relationship ;)

[eusebioCBR]

Homosexuality is repugnant. Don't confuse my opinion with hatred. I just don't believe it's natural. As a Christian it's not my place to judge any individual.
We will or do love our children no matter what the circumstance. Just IMAGINE if it could be up to you, would homosexuality be YOUR choice for your child?
This is a serious issue and I don't take pleasure in my position. Yet I will not veil my opinion with the "wisdom" of neutrality.

[uncertaindrumer]

I cant believe in a God who condems any kind of love...because GOD IS LOVE

That is just dumb. And I am not attacking you personally, Ana. TONS of people always say "I" can't do this and "I" can't do that and "I" refuse to believe in a God that would do this and that and whatever.

YOU (in the general sense) have no say in the matter. God CREATED THE UNIVERSE. For YOU to say that YOU refuse to believe in Him if He doesn't meet YOUR standards is downright dumb. YOU are not God and YOU don't get to choose what is right and wrong.

Who says God is love? You made that up. You certainly have no reason for saying so. I would say God is love also (with REASONS by the way--other than the fact that I just WANT Him to be love because that is a pleasant thought) but true love also has true JUSTICE and it it is not justifiable to break the laws of the very Being who created you.

And you don't think there are bad types of "love"? No perverted types of "love"? That is downright ABSURD. A parent who loves his child so much that he/she does not allow him to ever go outside or live their own life becuase they don't want them to get hurt is indeed "loving" their child but doing so in such a perverted way that the love is not only NOT a good thing it is a terribly unhealthy thing.

Lith, do morals change? If so, we have a much deeper argument to consider but if they DON'T, it shouldn't matter how long ago a book was written.

RMadd's original post: I agree with almost the entire thing. But NO, stealing a piece of candy is not NEARLY the same thing as murdering, raping or engaging in illicit sexual activity. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Common sense could tell you this but also the Bible says "Not all sin is deadly" hence not all sin is equal.

Anyway homosexuality is a perversion of all that God meant for love between a MAN and a WOMAN. It is a festering blister of evil on our society that it is accepted by many.

[RoffeDH]

He he he :D This is fun ;)

So averyone reffering to the old testament as a legitimit source for looking for answeres about homosexuality can just go and throw the bible out the door and never look in it again, what use? You're reffering to another religion... Almoste!
Now why do I say this? 'Couse it says things that we today don't agree with, I mean two doughters getting their father drunk and then raping him to gett preagnant with the childs of two tribe fathers... So incest is right? NO!
To gett back to "the gay people", it says in the old testament that it's a sin and all that crap, don't get me wrong I'm a christian my self, but why don't I agree with the bible on this, and alot of other things? If you look at the old testament and take away all the stuff about there being a God then you have guidelines for how a tribe should be flourishing and never die. You can't have sex with a wonem for two (or is it one) week after their period they are considered filthy and a man can't masturbate... Why all this? 'Couse the women aren't able to have children duiring this period and why shouldn't men be able to masturbate becouse then they might spoil a chans of haveing a son/doughter, plus they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.
This tells us that it's the same with homosexuality, you don't get any children and make the tribe become bigger and stronger! That's why homosexuallity is forbidden in the old testament, it didn't make it grow, that's why the rabbies made this rule up and
I agree with them (couse I don't think it was God who made that rule but the rabbies who made a logical soulution about the religion) 'couse Judeism is a religion that you must be born into you can't convert.
But what about what Paulus say in the new testament! He say that it's a sin!
Yeah! But he also was a jude before he became a christian so it might be there he got it from.

Love ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

That is just dumb. And I am not attacking you personally, Ana. TONS of people always say "I" can't do this and "I" can't do that and "I" refuse to believe in a God that would do this and that and whatever.

YOU (in the general sense) have no say in the matter. God CREATED THE UNIVERSE. For YOU to say that YOU refuse to believe in Him if He doesn't meet YOUR standards is downright dumb. YOU are not God and YOU don't get to choose what is right and wrong.

Who says God is love? You made that up. You certainly have no reason for saying so. I would say God is love also (with REASONS by the way--other than the fact that I just WANT Him to be love because that is a pleasant thought) but true love also has true JUSTICE and it it is not justifiable to break the laws of the very Being who created you.

And you don't think there are bad types of "love"? No perverted types of "love"? That is downright ABSURD. A parent who loves his child so much that he/she does not allow him to ever go outside or live their own life becuase they don't want them to get hurt is indeed "loving" their child but doing so in such a perverted way that the love is not only NOT a good thing it is a terribly unhealthy thing.

Lith, do morals change? If so, we have a much deeper argument to consider but if they DON'T, it shouldn't matter how long ago a book was written.

RMadd's original post: I agree with almost the entire thing. But NO, stealing a piece of candy is not NEARLY the same thing as murdering, raping or engaging in illicit sexual activity. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Common sense could tell you this but also the Bible says "Not all sin is deadly" hence not all sin is equal.

Anyway homosexuality is a perversion of all that God meant for love between a MAN and a WOMAN. It is a festering blister of evil on our society that it is accepted by many.

Well its amazing only your opinions are not dumb here...anyway...
Theres no BAD types of love, Stephen!!!!!! NEVER!!! Because if its bad inst LOVE!!!! You are not refering to love...Have you ever experienced this? Love is the most beautiful thing we have and of course it can be in many many types of this...
Yeah...as you already know Im not so religious , but I think I can be much more tolerant than many of you crhistians...
I cant understand how you who proclaime yourselves like crhistian when clearly you CANt act this way...I mean, didnt Christ teach man to be tolerate? Dindt HE Spread love to all ? Why you cant practice this? Is this only theory? Whats the meaning of being so intransigent? Is this the 'type' of love your Church teachs to you?
I mean its so easy to you to say:"THIS IS WRONG! THIS IS RIGHT!!!! Who are you to judge people lives? or censuring their 'pervert' kind of love???? You live a 'correct' life? Really?

Anyway, thanks for not attacking me personally this time, but its still too sad the way you cant understand the meaning of love :(

[eusebioCBR]

^ Love the sinner but reject the sin. Jesus Christ didn't teach "I'm okay, you're okay", rather come to me(Jesus) and repent(Change of mind and heart).
Pride keeps people from accepting right and wrong as black and white, or concrete. "How dare anyone(GOD) try to tell me the diff between right and wrong, I'll decide for myself". Adam and Eve made this decision with the tree of Knowledge of right and wrong.
Ana you seem to be convinced that Christians think of themselves as "perfect", but we Know we're not. If we(Christians) could live perfect lives we wouldn't have any need for a savior(Jesus).
My cousin is a lesbian and married to her mate. I love my cousin, but I don't recognize their union.
I don't judge her, I pray and hope the best for her. I feel that way about anyone this situation.

[metalanus]

Christ did teach tolerance but not for things that go against the bible. What is tolerance? How to you act tolerant without showing support. I am tolerant of gays , I treast them like anyone else, but I am against homosexuality.

[The Lithium]

Lith, do morals change? If so, we have a much deeper argument to consider but if they DON'T, it shouldn't matter how long ago a book was written.
Moral changes with time. And it sure was a long time ago that damn book was written!

they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.
Which prooves how way out of line they were and why we shouldn't listen to the bible when it comes to this issue! Love who ever you wanna love, 'cause right now, there's not enough love in this world!

[Rocketqueen]

yes of course it was written a long time ago thats why everybody is so so screwd up because there is no understanding but love it endures all things :D believes all things and hopes all things but neverthless the bible has about a zillon Reasons and to a poor person trying to figure it out is point 0 about like the churches i would love to see more Gay churches all over the world my aunt was upset with me today for cleaning her house on sunday the sabbath day is to be kept holy and she thought it was saturday and she started praying for forgiveness and we ended up having church and her house got clean anyways

[Rocketqueen]

He he he :D This is fun ;)

So averyone reffering to the old testament as a legitimit source for looking for answeres about homosexuality can just go and throw the bible out the door and never look in it again, what use? You're reffering to another religion... Almoste!
Now why do I say this? 'Couse it says things that we today don't agree with, I mean two doughters getting their father drunk and then raping him to gett preagnant with the childs of two tribe fathers... So incest is right? NO!
To gett back to "the gay people", it says in the old testament that it's a sin and all that crap, don't get me wrong I'm a christian my self, but why don't I agree with the bible on this, and alot of other things? If you look at the old testament and take away all the stuff about there being a God then you have guidelines for how a tribe should be flourishing and never die. You can't have sex with a wonem for two (or is it one) week after their period they are considered filthy and a man can't masturbate... Why all this? 'Couse the women aren't able to have children duiring this period and why shouldn't men be able to masturbate becouse then they might spoil a chans of haveing a son/doughter, plus they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.
This tells us that it's the same with homosexuality, you don't get any children and make the tribe become bigger and stronger! That's why homosexuallity is forbidden in the old testament, it didn't make it grow, that's why the rabbies made this rule up and
I agree with them (couse I don't think it was God who made that rule but the rabbies who made a logical soulution about the religion) 'couse Judeism is a religion that you must be born into you can't convert.
But what about what Paulus say in the new testament! He say that it's a sin!
Yeah! But he also was a jude before he became a christian so it might be there he got it from.

Love ;)
uh uh uh uh uh masturbate uh uh we all do it even priest and stuff but like the bible where paul said its better to do a slut huh huh and he was forgiving in stuff yes yes HE IS THE BIBLE !!!! BOINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG uh uh

[metalanus]

I dont masturbate I guess that makes me abnormal. the thing with the gay marraigae is that once that happens what keeps people from taking the "civil rights issue" further to include marriages with multiple partners or with animals or sadly children. There are liberal groups out there that are fighting to say man and boy relationships are normal. the american psychiatric association has recently reconsidered wether pedophillia is abnormal.

I dont think homosexuality is normal . in the research I have done gender identity disorder and sexual abuse are common amoung the homosexuals in those samples . Repeated sexual activity at an age that children and adolescence have rapid brain development could cause changes in the normal brain structure and physiology. It also could have been that because they were gay they sought out repeated sexual encounters at an early age. there seems to be a correlation. I think there are different causes for diferent people and some may have a stronger biological etiology while others psychological.

[RMadd]

Well, maybe it's time we stoped listening to a book that was written before the Middle Ages? Something about 2000 years ago, I suppose.
i suppose you wouldn't appreciate the study of... well... alot of stuff. I guess we can just ignore anything we've read thus far this semester in my Ancient Political Thought class. Shit... Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Gorgias, Cicero... those guys had no idea what they were talking about and are most definitely in no way whatsoever related to anything modern about politics.

What a small and sad man you are! Are you trying to tell me that I'm gay or living my life wrong? Maybe "unhealthy"? God is something men made up to make life and death a little easier!
If the shoe fits... but, come, how does that make me "small and sad?" I was merely pointing out how, while you are accusing us of denying love, you seem to be shunning the love God has for you just the same...

[eusebioCBR]

^ :thumbsup:

[RMadd]

Who says God is love? You made that up. You certainly have no reason for saying so. I would say God is love also (with REASONS by the way--other than the fact that I just WANT Him to be love because that is a pleasant thought) but true love also has true JUSTICE and it it is not justifiable to break the laws of the very Being who created you.
precisely. Yes, God is Love, but he's a lot of other things, too. He Himself says he's an angry, jealous God. He's not been afraid to, from time to time, smite people who don't quite agree w/ his whole plan for our lives.

Lith, do morals change? If so, we have a much deeper argument to consider but if they DON'T, it shouldn't matter how long ago a book was written.
seems like this just boils down to Relative Morality vs. Absolute. Christians do (or, anyway, should) believe in the latter version of morality: essentially, God's way or the highway. unfortunately, everyone else in this world (with, perhaps, the exceptions of other world religions) have diluted this to mean that it's any/every god's way or the highway and so that really anyone can claim to be doing right even if some other religion says otherwise.

It is a festering blister of evil on our society that it is accepted by many.
touché

[RMadd]

There are liberal groups out there that are fighting to say man and boy relationships are normal. the american psychiatric association has recently reconsidered wether pedophillia is abnormal.
Like the South Park episode w/ NAMBLA!

I dont think homosexuality is normal . in the research I have done gender identity disorder and sexual abuse are common amoung the homosexuals in those samples . Repeated sexual activity at an age that children and adolescence have rapid brain development could cause changes in the normal brain structure and physiology. It also could have been that because they were gay they sought out repeated sexual encounters at an early age. there seems to be a correlation. I think there are different causes for diferent people and some may have a stronger biological etiology while others psychological.
this reminds me of something in my Intro to Psych class I took freshman year. towards the end of the semester, my prof, in a large lecture, basically made "science's" case that homosexuality is perfectly normal, about how a certain part of the DNA is starting to be proven that actually causes homosexuality. my question (which i didn't pose to her) is whether this gene is actually for homosexuality (after all, it's not like they're physically labelled "eye color," "bipolar disorder," etc.) or whether, perhaps, there's something more. i suspect that it may well be for something that makes you more susceptible to convincing yourself of something or another. "I'm Superman... after all, I can do this, this, and this...." or "I'm gay... I've had thoughts about this, this, and this..." This could almost prove to be an example of confirmation bias. You start wondering about why you haven't had a girlfriend in so long, so you start doing some soul-searching. Maybe you find that it's really no big deal, that you don't really have time for one right now, the desire just isn't there right now. Then perhaps you start to wonder, "well gosh, am I sexually attracted to females anymore? I mean, there was this guy I saw the other day, and he was pretty studly... Maybe I prefer men... yeah, because there was this other guy a couple weeks ago, saw him at work, and I remember thinking he didn't look too bad either..." And then this whole thing gets blown out of proportion, so to speak. Now, I don't know if this is how it goes, b/c I've never struggled with the question, but I do personally know more than a couple of people who have come out of the closet, then gone back in again. I'm not convinced that homosexuality is natural in humans, and that it may be more of a 'group think' phenomena.

[RoffeDH]

Nobody answers me... :(

[The Lithium]

No offence, but... Fuck the Church!!! Now let me explain this... If there really was a God, (which I don't say there's not. I just find it hard to believe). I don't think he'd like what the Church pulls off. I mean, the Church have been trying to make money of poor, believing people, ever since the Middle Ages! God and the Church are actually two separate things. God is the creater, and so on. Church is what men made and what men rules. God didn't build any Churches and he didn't set any rules. Men did, they took God's responsibility in their own hands. And also, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by men. Who's to say those who wrote that over 2000 years ago weren't wrong?

I like to think they were. I like to think of God as forgiving and loving, otherwise I can't see a reason to believe in Him. And I don't think He minds homosexuality, I think that's just something men are afraid of, 'cause we're always so freaking close minded to new things.

[uncertaindrumer]

No offence, but... Fuck the Church!!! Now let me explain this... If there really was a God, (which I don't say there's not. I just find it hard to believe). I don't think he'd like what the Church pulls off. I mean, the Church have been trying to make money of poor, believing people, ever since the Middle Ages! God and the Church are actually two separate things. God is the creater, and so on. Church is what men made and what men rules. God didn't build any Churches and he didn't set any rules. Men did, they took God's responsibility in their own hands. And also, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by men. Who's to say those who wrote that over 2000 years ago weren't wrong?

I like to think they were. I like to think of God as forgiving and loving, otherwise I can't see a reason to believe in Him. And I think don't think He minds homosexuality, I think that's just something men are afraid of, 'cause we're always so freaking close minded to new things.

I, I, I, I. The sheer arrogance of humanity is amazing. It's always "I" don't want to believe in God if He does this, "I" don't think He would ever do this.

Give me a break. You think your pitiful little brain (no offense. I don't mean just you. I mean any of us, myself included) has any business telling God what He could or could not do?

"I like to think of God..."--case in point. It is never what the evidence is for, it is just what you WANT to believe. That is not a good way to go about things.

And just so you know your entire first paragraph is either literally, factually wrong, or has absurd notions with no evidence at all. Often both.

[Ana4Stapp]

Nobody answers me... :(

so what was your question here???? :D

[Ana4Stapp]

I, I, I, I. The sheer arrogance of humanity is amazing. It's always "I" don't want to believe in God if He does this, "I" don't think He would ever do this.

Give me a break. You think your pitiful little brain (no offense. I don't mean just you. I mean any of us, myself included) has any business telling God what He could or could not do?

"I like to think of God..."--case in point. It is never what the evidence is for, it is just what you WANT to believe. That is not a good way to go about things.

And just so you know your entire first paragraph is either literally, factually wrong, or has absurd notions with no evidence at all. Often both.

Even though you didnt answer it to me (not even answered to my post) I have to ask you why do you believe in God? I mean , God -like you said - isnt love, so waht is HE? What kind of God is this? So did He create man and woman to suffer for being homossexuals people?

And yes I CAN think about a God who does things I believe , otherwise theres no sense of believing in God...

This the problem of all religions IMO, they are SO worried about their 'books' that forget all the challenges we have right now, so worried about forbid comdoms that forget to see AIDS is killing those people, so concerned avoiding the 'pervert' homossexuals weddings that forget another essential problems like misery and hunger what we still have in many places of the world...

anyway...I must be arrogant... :rolleyes:

[Rocketqueen]

Nobody answers me... :(
Awwwwww we all just like to argue and proove are points and talk over top each other and a simple question is looked over in these type of threads what was your question darlin i will awnser ya if i can

[Rocketqueen]

No offence, but... Fuck the Church!!! Now let me explain this... If there really was a God, (which I don't say there's not. I just find it hard to believe). I don't think he'd like what the Church pulls off. I mean, the Church have been trying to make money of poor, believing people, ever since the Middle Ages! God and the Church are actually two separate things. God is the creater, and so on. Church is what men made and what men rules. God didn't build any Churches and he didn't set any rules. Men did, they took God's responsibility in their own hands. And also, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by men. Who's to say those who wrote that over 2000 years ago weren't wrong?

I like to think they were. I like to think of God as forgiving and loving, otherwise I can't see a reason to believe in Him. And I think don't think He minds homosexuality, I think that's just something men are afraid of, 'cause we're always so freaking close minded to new things. AMEN BROTHER !!! :D !!! you explain well and may peace be with you with your explaning :)

[RoffeDH]

Awwwwww we all just like to argue and proove are points and talk over top each other and a simple question is looked over in these type of threads what was your question darlin i will awnser ya if i can

I haven't asked a thing... I made a point about why homosexuallity was baned in Judeism and thus in Christianity, wich it shouldn't...

He he he This is fun

So averyone reffering to the old testament as a legitimit source for looking for answeres about homosexuality can just go and throw the bible out the door and never look in it again, what use? You're reffering to another religion... Almoste!
Now why do I say this? 'Couse it says things that we today don't agree with, I mean two doughters getting their father drunk and then raping him to gett preagnant with the childs of two tribe fathers... So incest is right? NO!
To gett back to "the gay people", it says in the old testament that it's a sin and all that crap, don't get me wrong I'm a christian my self, but why don't I agree with the bible on this, and alot of other things? If you look at the old testament and take away all the stuff about there being a God then you have guidelines for how a tribe should be flourishing and never die. You can't have sex with a wonem for two (or is it one) week after their period they are considered filthy and a man can't masturbate... Why all this? 'Couse the women aren't able to have children duiring this period and why shouldn't men be able to masturbate becouse then they might spoil a chans of haveing a son/doughter, plus they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.
This tells us that it's the same with homosexuality, you don't get any children and make the tribe become bigger and stronger! That's why homosexuallity is forbidden in the old testament, it didn't make it grow, that's why the rabbies made this rule up and
I agree with them (couse I don't think it was God who made that rule but the rabbies who made a logical soulution about the religion) 'couse Judeism is a religion that you must be born into you can't convert.
But what about what Paulus say in the new testament! He say that it's a sin!
Yeah! But he also was a jude before he became a christian so it might be there he got it from.

Love

[The Lithium]

AMEN BROTHER !!! :D !!! you explain well and may peace be with you with your explaning :)
Thank you, I'm glad you're with me on this one, bro! :D

[The Lithium]

I, I, I, I. The sheer arrogance of humanity is amazing. It's always "I" don't want to believe in God if He does this, "I" don't think He would ever do this.

Give me a break. You think your pitiful little brain (no offense. I don't mean just you. I mean any of us, myself included) has any business telling God what He could or could not do?
Alright then... Fuck God! (I didn't mean that). Well... I did in one way. If I'm ever gonna believe in God then he better be how I want him to be. 'Cause it's me who believes in him, right? I have the right to believe whatever the hell I want to.

"I like to think of God..."--case in point. It is never what the evidence is for, it is just what you WANT to believe. That is not a good way to go about things.

And just so you know your entire first paragraph is either literally, factually wrong, or has absurd notions with no evidence at all. Often both.
"I believe it when I see it for myself, I don't need no one to tell me 'bout heaven" -- Live ~ Heaven

[Chase]

Thank you, I'm glad you're with me on this one, bro! :D

You completely dance around the biological aspects of homosexuality. It isn't an issue of love... because the majority of gay men I know are lustful and promiscuous. They gawk at other men and at times will sexually harass straight men by making inappropriate comments. Of course this isn't all gay men, but I have hardly seen the one's who appear to be truly in love with their partner. And keep in mind that I live in the state of California... we have a huge homosexual population here. Biologically speaking, explain the benefits of homosexuality for the future of humanity. Obviously you can't procreate, so that alone creates a major problem. I mean, if you created an isolated population made of completely of homosexuals, the population would completely die out. I haven't seen any proof that there's a genetic link to homosexuality. In fact, I've heard a lot of homosexuals constantly brag about how their fathers were manly, All-American beer drinking men. Homosexuals will constantly claim that raising children within their lifestyle won't automatically turn them gay. So Lith, since you're obviously riddled with multitudes of intelligence (courtesy of the Swedish public education system for little Marxists) explain to me the biological benefits of gay anal "intercourse," their inability to procreate, and lack of monogamy.

I could care less about what happens behind closed doors. But I have seen hardly little evidence that homosexuality is a beneficial biological characteristic. The only argument I've heard is that people are gay to help control the sprawling populations of the world.

[RMadd]

No offence, but... Fuck the Church!!! Now let me explain this... If there really was a God, (which I don't say there's not. I just find it hard to believe). I don't think he'd like what the Church pulls off. I mean, the Church have been trying to make money of poor, believing people, ever since the Middle Ages! God and the Church are actually two separate things. God is the creater, and so on. Church is what men made and what men rules. God didn't build any Churches and he didn't set any rules. Men did, they took God's responsibility in their own hands. And also, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by men. Who's to say those who wrote that over 2000 years ago weren't wrong?
I see what you're getting at here, Lith, and I actually agree, but only a very small amount, and for a very different reason. You see, today's church(es) have become too corrupted by modernism & postmodernism, relativism, and all that stuff. Case in point? Homosexuality. Yes, God might be love, and we, as Christians, want all to know God, but it looks like those denominations which have chosen to ordain or accept homosexuals and homosexuality are merely doing so in an effort to make Christianity more "mainstream" again. They're surrendering their beliefs (or what true Christianity dictates they believe) so as to acquiesce to the complaints of the irreligious (and even some modern & postmodern "Christians") that Christianity isn't very accepting of differences. So, it would therefore seem that this might conform to what Lith has been saying all along here: Man made God, or at least Man has created his modern conceptualization of what God might be (this modern interpretation of God, of course, is very wide-ranging).
You also mention the corruption in the churches. I won't deny that church officials aren't perfect. They're sinners just like everyone else. And some of them have gotten their priorities messed up. But taking money from the poor? I'm not really sure you can accuse current denominations of so doing. Perhaps in medieval times, yes, but today's churches aren't bent on further impoverishing the destitute. You also seem to be putting a very negative spin on the fact that God says we must give to Him a portion of all our rewards, time, gifts, talents, etc. A tithe, if you're familiar with that term. And, truthfully, I did struggle with the matter of organized religion a few years ago. But I finally realized that, while we might think it important to believe what we want to believe without some overarching institution telling what we should believe, it's imperative that this structure remain pure and, if so, it can successfully and ably lead people in their Faith. Also, technically speaking, is not two people meeting on a regular basis to discuss their Faith a mere example of organized religion? God's plan is not for us to walk through life completely alone, to interpret His words for us as we see fit, but that everyone commonly holds one thing as Truth.

I like to think they were. I like to think of God as forgiving and loving, otherwise I can't see a reason to believe in Him. And I don't think He minds homosexuality, I think that's just something men are afraid of, 'cause we're always so freaking close minded to new things.
You don't think he minds homosexuality???? What's your basis for this? You, my friend, seem to be the sad and the small, that you take a modern/postmodern conceptualization of God and, without any Scriptural basis, twist and manipulate this conceptualization so that, all of a sudden, God doesn't mind homosexuality! How terribly absurd of you to even hint at this! Where lies your Scriptural basis, Lith? Where is it?
You also call us close-minded. Another sad & small comment. Relativism dictates that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and you, Lith, are very much a relativist. How, then, do you think you come of making such an absolutist statement such regarding our evident "close-minded"ness? Are we truly close-minded, as you assert, or are we entitled to believe what we like? We have seen these "new things" and we find that they clash with our current belief system(s) so, rather than give in a segment of the moral basis for our existence, we choose to continue believing in those things in which we have believed prior to the emergence of these "new things."

[RMadd]

Who's to say those who wrote that over 2000 years ago weren't wrong?
Well, they might be wrong, but that doesn't mean that we discard them altogether. Also, given the fact that all these documents (Bible, The Republic, The History of the Peloponnesian War, On the Republic, Gorgias, Politics, The Prince, etc) have been in continued use for much of the 1500-3000 years since they were written (aside from the unenlightened era known as the Dark Ages), I would presume that there's a fairly sizable number of people who finds each of the aforementioned documents (and countless others) still pertinent.

[metalanus]

the bible says that homosexuals are given to reprobate minds. I think that accounts for some of the blatant sexuality they (not all) flaunt. Just look at San Fransico's gay day. the longer a homosexual continues in homosexual sex the less likely he or she will be able to control it and remain celebate because the brain functioning changes as a result. That is why pheromone and brain studies found gay mens brains to be more like females . it could be biologically set from the beginning but things could have occured to affect the brain development.

[uncertaindrumer]

Even though you didnt answer it to me (not even answered to my post) I have to ask you why do you believe in God? I mean , God -like you said - isnt love, so waht is HE?

He is Good. Good is not limited to love.

What kind of God is this?

The only kind.

So did He create man and woman to suffer for being homossexuals people?

No, that was sin.

And yes I CAN think about a God who does things I believe , otherwise theres no sense of believing in God...

That makes no sense at all. That's like believing only in a world that is the way YOU want it, otherwise it makes no sense at all. Just because you say the moon is purple does not make it so.

This the problem of all religions IMO, they are SO worried about their 'books' that forget all the challenges we have right now,

Actually, we use our "books" among other things to face these challenges.

so worried about forbid comdoms that forget to see AIDS is killing those people,

Yes because those countries which promote the use of condoms are REALLY fixing that AIDS problem :rolleyes:

so concerned avoiding the 'pervert' homossexuals weddings that forget another essential problems like misery and hunger what we still have in many places of the world...

You think I don't worry about hnger? If I had to pick between an issue that meant more to me between dealign with hunger and poverty in the world, or keeping homosexual marriages unlawful, I wouldn't even THINK about it. For its insidious evil, homosexuality for the MOST part only hurts those who engage in it.

anyway...I must be arrogant... :rolleyes:

We all are, to some degree. Only a perfect person would be perfectly humble.

[Ana4Stapp]

That makes no sense at all. That's like believing only in a world that is the way YOU want it, otherwise it makes no sense at all. Just because you say the moon is purple does not make it so.

You are changing my words...didnt say this kind of thing...but of course if YOU believe in God (and Im sure you do this) you think about HIM ahving LOVE, GOODNESS, TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING....
anyway seems you are acting like Church right now...I mean, prefering to lose followers. instead of captivating them...


Actually, we use our "books" among other things to face these challenges.
C'mon uncertain! You being religious know that those books only avoid these cahllenges...even though the problem is still there...

Yes because those countries which promote the use of condoms are REALLY fixing that AIDS problem :rolleyes:

Oh my God! Again ? Anyway I dont think being ironic is the best here....

You think I don't worry about hnger? If I had to pick between an issue that meant more to me between dealign with hunger and poverty in the world, or keeping homosexual marriages unlawful, I wouldn't even THINK about it. For its insidious evil, homosexuality for the MOST part only hurts those who engage in it.

Well I didnt say you are the kind of person who dont worry about poverty or hunger...but you know wahts ironic ? you said homosexuality only hurts homosexual people...so why do you mind about this issue...its like live and let live, u know?


We all are, to some degree. Only a perfect person would be perfectly humble

Yes...actually we are very far from perfection...and its definitely good. ;)

[eusebioCBR]

In my humble opinion, this seems to be going nowhere. The back and forth is very entertainig, but consider the option of "agree to disagree" :confused:
Lith, eventhough I don't agree with your opinion I respect it. I hold my faith close and sacred just as I'm sure you value your opinions and beliefs. It's just not very cool to say f**** what people value. :cheers: CHEERS!!!

[Rocketqueen]

again i will say no sin is greater than another if we all sin in more ways than one we are all gay and murders and thifes so the point i so despratley try to get across the price was made For God So Loved The World That He Gave His Only Begotten Son and so forth to saves all from are sins and to teach us how to love and understand each other not to condem are push are brothers and sisters aside from the love of christ no man can say who has right to be partakers of christ he died for the world so what a city was destroyed to show example of this chaos and it said hey GOD did not choose it to be this way and then destroyed the earth with a flood then our saviour came and died and suffred and more sufferment to tell us what more example and chaos could one show to love us all and saves all and left his spirt to teach and guide so yes gays have there rights with christ who else would said that gays would be more easy to put up than the wax cold spirt of these days and of course we got more mad morons preaching in sweat and their wallets getting fatter about how its all the freaking antichrist movement those son of a bitches should really know should,nt they :mad1: :mad1: :mad1:

[eusebioCBR]

again i will say no sin is greater than another if we all sin in more ways than one we are all gay and murders and thifes so the point i so despratley try to get across the price was made For God So Loved The World That He Gave His Only Begotten Son and so forth to saves all from are sins and to teach us how to love and understand each other not to condem are push are brothers and sisters aside from the love of christ no man can say who has right to be partakers of christ he died for the world so what a city was destroyed to show example of this chaos and it said hey GOD did not choose it to be this way and then destroyed the earth with a flood then our saviour came and died and suffred and more sufferment to tell us what more example and chaos could one show to love us all and saves all and left his spirt to teach and guide so yes gays have there rights with christ who else would said that gays would be more easy to put up than the wax cold spirt of these days and of course we got more mad morons preaching in sweat and their wallets getting fatter about how its all the freaking antichrist movement those son of a bitches should really know should,nt they :mad1: :mad1: :mad1:
Far out man :smokin:

[eusebioCBR]

Jellyfish heaven, where jellyfish go
To get away from mormons and drunk eskimos
Jellyfish heaven, is alot like LA
If yer bad, you'll go to hell
The jellyfish will sting you and your body will swell!
People always cryin' don't go swimming near those things
But when you're close to dying you can hear them sing
Jellyfish heaven in the big blue sea
Where it's too cold to surf and it's too warm to ski
Jellyfish heaven is full of dead jellyfish
People always say'n I won't eat jellyfish
Cause they aint got no bones and you can't make a wish
Jellyfish heaven in the big blue sea
Where it's too cold to surf and it's too warm to ski
Jellyfish heaven is full of dead jellyfish
All praise the jellyfish!
-The Dead Milkmen
I have strong opinions on this issue but the debate here has just become comical :nut:

[The Lithium]

You completely dance around the biological aspects of homosexuality. It isn't an issue of love... because the majority of gay men I know are lustful and promiscuous. They gawk at other men and at times will sexually harass straight men by making inappropriate comments. Of course this isn't all gay men, but I have hardly seen the one's who appear to be truly in love with their partner. And keep in mind that I live in the state of California...
1) What the hell do you know about their love-life? They obviously live a different life from yours. A life you don't really seem to understand and respect...
2) Maybe you've just met the wrong, people, I don't know. But I've sure as hell met gays who's TOTALLY in love with their partner, and you're not the one to say they're not!

we have a huge homosexual population here. Biologically speaking, explain the benefits of homosexuality for the future of humanity. Obviously you can't procreate, so that alone creates a major problem. I mean, if you created an isolated population made of completely of homosexuals, the population would completely die out. I haven't seen any proof that there's a genetic link to homosexuality. In fact, I've heard a lot of homosexuals constantly brag about how their fathers were manly, All-American beer drinking men. Homosexuals will constantly claim that raising children within their lifestyle won't automatically turn them gay.
Dude, it's not only men who are capable of being gay. Dogs can be, cats, hourses, etc, etc. It's almost everywhere. And why do you keep talking about "anal sex"? Hell, a lot of hetrosexual people do anal as well! And keep in mind women can be gay just as well.

But I actually can give you an example of how two homosexual people did this world a favour, biologically! One of my families best friends is gay. And he's best friend is a lesbian. And they both wanted kids... And now they've got one! Adopted? Nope... Test tube. But sadly, gay people is not allowed to do test tube in Sweden, which is a fucking crime, I think. So they went to London, the states, Finalnd, until she fanily was pregnant. They've now got a beautiful little baby boy who's 3 y/o, and very healthy and happy. They made a documentary about this on TV a few years ago. And people loved it over here. And they just aired it, over and over again. And still today young men who Ola, (the gay-man), have never ever seen before come up to him and say: "Thank you. Thank you for telling me there is a chance to get a kid anyway... Really! Thanks!".

Ola and his, (and my families), lesbian friend; Anna-Lena, is now trying to have their second baby! And they're the sweetest parents, I promise! And don't you insult anyone of them or their life-style! You don't know a heck about them or how it works in this country!

So Lith, since you're obviously riddled with multitudes of intelligence (courtesy of the Swedish public education system for little Marxists) explain to me the biological benefits of gay anal "intercourse," their inability to procreate, and lack of monogamy.
Why do you always keep insulting me for my opinions? It's weak man, real weak! And why do you insult millions of people you don't even know the name or face of?

I've heard that some Americans seems to think that Sweden is a fucking-gay-land! And if that's how you wanna explain it, you're cowareds, but that's non of my business... Anyway... I'll tell you want. Sweden is NOT gay-friendly enough. There is still hate and racism in this country. And not only to gays. I'm pretty sure, it's much worse in some parts of the states. Maybe the whole country, I dunno 'bout that. But being from middle-east or being gay is still not 100% accepted here. It is by me, and many others, but not by everyone.

I could care less about what happens behind closed doors. But I have seen hardly little evidence that homosexuality is a beneficial biological characteristic. The only argument I've heard is that people are gay to help control the sprawling populations of the world.
"Sköt dej själv och skit i andra". That's a swedish expression and it pretty much means: "Mind your our business and don't give a shit about others". It doesn't mean you should be egoistical, it means you should let others be and try to get a long instead.

[The Lithium]

You don't think he minds homosexuality???? What's your basis for this? You, my friend, seem to be the sad and the small, that you take a modern/postmodern conceptualization of God and, without any Scriptural basis, twist and manipulate this conceptualization so that, all of a sudden, God doesn't mind homosexuality! How terribly absurd of you to even hint at this! Where lies your Scriptural basis, Lith? Where is it?
I'm sad you see it that way. But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right? And I believe he doesn't excist, never has and never will. And I don't think you really got my last post. But if God created men and created love. Why did he created homosexuality? My point is that being against homosexuality is something men made up. Not God. And IF God did, he's just evil. And why should I believe in something evil?

You also call us close-minded. Another sad & small comment. Relativism dictates that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and you, Lith, are very much a relativist. How, then, do you think you come of making such an absolutist statement such regarding our evident "close-minded"ness? Are we truly close-minded, as you assert, or are we entitled to believe what we like? We have seen these "new things" and we find that they clash with our current belief system(s) so, rather than give in a segment of the moral basis for our existence, we choose to continue believing in those things in which we have believed prior to the emergence of these "new things."
How am I close-minded when I am open for everything, besides from a book that tells me that I'm dead-wrong.

I don't think believing in organized religon is the right way to go. While many wars, still today, is fought because of religon, I like to quote Dali-Lama. "I think we need every religon to learn from each other. But you must be open minded to learn". I'm not a Buddisht, but that's the religon that's closest to what I wanna believe. And since I am a man I can believe whatever the heck I want without somebody telling me I'm wrong!

[RoffeDH]

You don't think he minds homosexuality???? What's your basis for this? You, my friend, seem to be the sad and the small, that you take a modern/postmodern conceptualization of God and, without any Scriptural basis, twist and manipulate this conceptualization so that, all of a sudden, God doesn't mind homosexuality! How terribly absurd of you to even hint at this! Where lies your Scriptural basis, Lith? Where is it?

Uhm? Read my post... AGAIN! And you'll see what kind of basis there is for christians to accept homosexuality and why God now a day accepts it!

It's called not haveing a religion that needs to expand through birth like Judeism does. Paulus was a jude and Christianity IS Judeism but we belive our savior has come... But since EVERYBODY can be christians then you can have homosexualls since they don't stop the expandation of christianity... (READ THE WHOLE PICE AND YOU'LL SEE I'M RIGHT! noboy reads or answers my posts... WHY NOT!!! :mad1: )

[The Lithium]

Uhm? Read my post... AGAIN! And you'll see what kind of basis there is for christians to accept homosexuality and why God now a day accepts it!

It's called not haveing a religion that needs to expand through birth like Judeism does. Paulus was a jude and Christianity IS Judeism but we belive our savior has come... But since EVERYBODY can be christians then you can have homosexualls since they don't stop the expandation of christianity... (READ THE WHOLE PICE AND YOU'LL SEE I'M RIGHT! noboy reads or answers my posts... WHY NOT!!! :mad1: )
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

[Ana4Stapp]

I'm sad you see it that way. But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right? And I believe he doesn't excist, never has and never will. And I don't think you really got my last post. But if God created men and created love. Why did he created homosexuality? My point is that being against homosexuality is something men made up. Not God. And IF God did, he's just evil. And why should I believe in something evil?


Still loving your posts here! ;)

[RoffeDH]

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
Nothing ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

You are changing my words...didnt say this kind of thing...

Yes, you did.

but of course if YOU believe in God (and Im sure you do this)

Obviously.

you think about HIM ahving LOVE, GOODNESS, TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING....

Says who? You are putting words in my mouth. Things are good BECAUSE they come from God. God does not have to fit any pre-existing notions of good and evil because there ARE none. Without God there IS NO good and evil. Good=thigns from God, evil=absence of God. If there is no God we are all just chemical reactions.

anyway seems you are acting like Church right now...I mean, prefering to lose followers. instead of captivating them...

I would rather there be ten true followers of Christ than a billion fake ones. You can't compromise beliefs to get followers because they aren't followers if you do.



C'mon uncertain! You being religious know that those books only avoid these cahllenges...even though the problem is still there...

Avoid these challenges? So in the same thread we have people telling us that the Bible is outdated and wrong, and should be done away with (because it actually--*gasp*--speaks out agaisnt certain things) and others telling us that the Bible doesn't deal with anything?



Oh my God! Again ? Anyway I dont think being ironic is the best here....

Not unless it helps you realize how untenable your position is. Not only are condoms immoral, they are INEFFECTIVE.



Well I didnt say you are the kind of person who dont worry about poverty or hunger...but you know wahts ironic ? you said homosexuality only hurts homosexual people...so why do you mind about this issue...its like live and let live, u know?

I said *for the most part*, notice I specifically added that. But there are certainly problems that arise from homosexuality which are not limited to those performing the act.




Yes...actually we are very far from perfection...and its definitely good. ;)

Not, it is not. If we can attempt to be perfect we should. Not to be nitpicky or anything but if we admit that being imperfect is acceptable, than all standards of EVERYTHING fall down. After all, we are all imperfect and we shouldn't be ashamed of that, right? But we should. We should always strive for perfection, even while knowing we will almost definitely fail.

[uncertaindrumer]

But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right?

Absolutely not. Perhaps the physical capability. But not the right.

[RoffeDH]

Yes you do have the right to do it... But it's probobly wrong... Who say you've got the answer!? How can I belive in somebody I don't agree on... Can I throw my life in their arms... NO! I need to trust them! There for not being able to accept god is okey!

[Ana4Stapp]

Yes, you did.

Really? Im not sure...but anyway, sorry, it was not my intention... :o

Obviously.

;)

Says who? You are putting words in my mouth. Things are good BECAUSE they come from God. God does not have to fit any pre-existing notions of good and evil because there ARE none. Without God there IS NO good and evil. Good=thigns from God, evil=absence of God. If there is no God we are all just chemical reactions.

hum...maybe...you are right



I would rather there be ten true followers of Christ than a billion fake ones. You can't compromise beliefs to get followers because they aren't followers if you do.

So ... are you saying that I AM a fake one?




Avoid these challenges? So in the same thread we have people telling us that the Bible is outdated and wrong, and should be done away with (because it actually--*gasp*--speaks out agaisnt certain things) and others telling us that the Bible doesn't deal with anything?

I didnt say BIble is outdated and of course I CANT say it since I AM a History teacher :rolleyes: and I dont recall sayinng its wrong because I do respect all religions, but try to understand that every religions have a very important role on our society and I think they only need to be really nvolved with these problems we have right now, helping people, giving orientation(especially to the young ) to go through this insteady of only saying "this is a sin or this is wrong". It wont help.




Not unless it helps you realize how untenable your position is. Not only are condoms immoral, they are INEFFECTIVE.

This is your point of view...and you know mine



I said *for the most part*, notice I specifically added that. But there are certainly problems that arise from homosexuality which are not limited to those performing the act.
what are they? diseases? besides morals?




Not, it is not. If we can attempt to be perfect we should. Not to be nitpicky or anything but if we admit that being imperfect is acceptable, than all standards of EVERYTHING fall down. After all, we are all imperfect and we shouldn't be ashamed of that, right? But we should. We should always strive for perfection, even while knowing we will almost definitely fail.

Ah Stephen, I cant believe you didnt get it... :rolleyes: anyaway Ill try explain it again: WE ARE IMPERFECT!!!!! Iam not accepting it like a GOOD thing...but Im admiting it like TRUE! And while we are living we are trying to grow up, not only phisically but emotionally and also spiritually. This is the meaning of the LIFE (IMO)!
Also can you imagine how boring could be if we are PERFECT since the day of our birth? A perfect life ! Would you like it? I guess not.

Hope this time you get my point. ;)

[Chase]

You want to talk about outdated religions? You're battle should be with Islam then.

[RoffeDH]

Why with Islam Chase? You just probobly have their belife mixed up!

[uncertaindrumer]

hum...maybe...you are right

:eek:



.

So ... are you saying that I AM a fake one?

No, I wasn't talking about you at all. But one can't water down beliefs to get someone to "believe" them. Cuz then they aren't converting, YOU are, by virtue of changing what they need to believe.






I didnt say BIble is outdated and of course I CANT say it since I AM a History teacher :rolleyes: and I dont recall sayinng its wrong because I do respect all religions, but try to understand that every religions have a very important role on our society and I think they only need to be really nvolved with these problems we have right now, helping people, giving orientation(especially to the young ) to go through this insteady of only saying "this is a sin or this is wrong". It wont help.

If people are brought up RIGHT it will. There ARE moral absolutes in this world, despite what everyone wants to think.






This is your point of view...and you know mine
It isn't a point of view. It's a fact that condoms are NOT working.




what are they? diseases? besides morals?

They can harm the adopted children, for a specific example. Beyond that any society which is willnig to legalize somethign immoral hurts itself, period. Sometiems that is necessary. Government, it could be argued, is a necessary evil, but sometiems we have to deal with necessary evils. Making homosexual marriages legal is not at all necessary.






Ah Stephen, I cant believe you didnt get it... :rolleyes: anyaway Ill try explain it again: WE ARE IMPERFECT!!!!! Iam not accepting it like a GOOD thing...but Im admiting it like TRUE! And while we are living we are trying to grow up, not only phisically but emotionally and also spiritually. This is the meaning of the LIFE (IMO)!

This makes sense. I understand this. This is correct. Then you say...

Also can you imagine how boring could be if we are PERFECT since the day of our birth? A perfect life ! Would you like it? I guess not.

Ludicrous. If I could be perfect and have everyone else be perfect I would not even THINK about turning it down.

[uncertaindrumer]

Yes you do have the right to do it...

No. You have the capabiltiy much as you have the capability to murder your neighbor. You do not have the RIGHT to murder your neighbor.

But it's probobly wrong... Who say you've got the answer!?

Well that is a heck of a debate isn't it.

How can I belive in somebody I don't agree on...

Agree? How can you disagree with GOD?

Can I throw my life in their arms... NO! I need to trust them!

Then the fault is yours for not being capable of that trust.

Therefor not being able to accept god is okey!

Not if He exists.

[Ana4Stapp]

eek:

:confused:



It isn't a point of view. It's a fact that condoms are NOT working.
Cant see it as a fact...


They can harm the adopted children, for a specific example. Beyond that any society which is willnig to legalize somethign immoral hurts itself, period. Sometiems that is necessary. Government, it could be argued, is a necessary evil, but sometiems we have to deal with necessary evils. Making homosexual marriages legal is not at all necessary.

So are you against gays adopting children? Arent they good enough people to do this? Or you prefer lkeeping those kids at orphanage. or worse, on streets?



This makes sense. I understand this. This is correct. Then you say...

Thanks for your comprehension... ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

:confused:

I couldn't believe you admitted I was right.




Cant see it as a fact...

Show me ONE country where AIDS has declined over the last fifty years...



You always look at the smaller picture Ana. with both homosexuality and AIDS, you would have us renounce all that is moral to make a couple people happy, and instead doom a culture to a societal structure in which evils such as AIDS poverty and hunger continue to thrive and grow, thus worsening all the very problems you attempted to correct short-sightedly in the first place.

[RMadd]

But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right?
Not really. We believe God made Man, so he's pretty much unchanging, and it doesn't matter what wide variety of beliefs people have of Him, as there's only one true one. Granted, you believe Man made God, so that pretty much hinders any possible belief in the absolute.

[Rocketqueen]

well it should have increaed AIDS is a plauge :) like a bowl of wrath so is cancer and myself am surprised that another new killing plauge has not hit us yet im sure it has but we dont know about it and when and if it does im sure everybody will still be blaming gay people for it and babys has died with the disease and been born with the infected With HIV its not just a disease nor a plauge for evil gay people has the world soon found out when it kept spreading let me ramble on AIDS brought many together and opend their minds to the fact that hey this could happen to me and for many on the high horses thought that it was just for gays soon learned other wise for examples By God So Yes it has mabey decreased just mabey after many learned what it was all about

[Rocketqueen]

Not really. We believe God made Man, so he's pretty much unchanging, and it doesn't matter what wide variety of beliefs people have of Him, as there's only one true one. Granted, you believe Man made God, so that pretty much hinders any possible belief in the absolute.
I disagree he never said that man made God he said i should be able to believe In God the way i want if i read it right and God will search you in the ways you believe and dont believe untill you get it right A relationship that God wants with you not really that you want with him

[RMadd]

Well, I think I realized why no one's responding to your posts... misspelling, hard to follow... you're falling perilously close to creedsister's domain there fella.... but, I assume this is the post you've been itching for me & uncertain & eusebio to respond to, so here goes
He he he :D This is fun ;)

So averyone reffering to the old testament as a legitimit source for looking for answeres about homosexuality can just go and throw the bible out the door and never look in it again, what use? You're reffering to another religion... Almoste!
referring to another religion? yes, the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, but it's still considered part of the Christian heritage, b/c, believe it or not, it "forewarns" of Jesus' coming and all the fun stuff about how to live correctly to best please God.

Now why do I say this? 'Couse it says things that we today don't agree with, I mean two doughters getting their father drunk and then raping him to gett preagnant with the childs of two tribe fathers... So incest is right? NO!
to what story are you referring? Noah, after he got off the ark? that's the only one that sounds familiar to your description. I'm not sure whose interpretation you're using, but pastors & youth pastors & sunday school teachers I've had have all pointed out that Noah did, in fact, sin there. yes, it's incest. believe it or not, the people in all those OT stories you read were every bit as sinful as us (some of them just knew better how to set their lives right with God).
To gett back to "the gay people", it says in the old testament that it's a sin and all that crap, don't get me wrong I'm a christian my self, but why don't I agree with the bible on this, and alot of other things? If you look at the old testament and take away all the stuff about there being a God then you have guidelines for how a tribe should be flourishing and never die. You can't have sex with a wonem for two (or is it one) week after their period they are considered filthy and a man can't masturbate... Why all this? 'Couse the women aren't able to have children duiring this period and why shouldn't men be able to masturbate becouse then they might spoil a chans of haveing a son/doughter, plus they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.
Ummm, well, masturbation is pretty wrong, since it involves putting something (i.e. your own sexual pleasure and depravity) ahead of God (and not only if you skip church on Sunday to pinch one off in your bathroom sink). Aside from that, I really can't make heads or tails of what you're saying there, so I'll just leave it be....
This tells us that it's the same with homosexuality, you don't get any children and make the tribe become bigger and stronger! That's why homosexuallity is forbidden in the old testament, it didn't make it grow, that's why the rabbies made this rule up and
I agree with them (couse I don't think it was God who made that rule but the rabbies who made a logical soulution about the religion) 'couse Judeism is a religion that you must be born into you can't convert.
But what about what Paulus say in the new testament! He say that it's a sin!
Yeah! But he also was a jude before he became a christian so it might be there he got it from.
is their a problem with him deriving what he believes in from Jewish (I assume this is what you mean when you say "Jude," which, btw, is part of a Beatles song, not a world religion)? because, after all, Christianity is based in part on Judaism (as you might recall, I said this above w/ regard to your suggestion we more or less discard the OT). I think we've pretty well established that God doesn't look to kindly upon homosexuality in the OT. But you and Lith and a couple others are now saying that He thinks it's ok. So, just as I asked a few posts ago, wherein lies your Scriptural basis for this claim? Yes, God is Love. Yes, God loves all. But that doesn't mean that God loves our sins and doesn't care that we commit the very same sin again and again.

So, you seemed to assert that I would read your post and would be forced to agree with you 100%. It seems to me that your own confidence in your ability to explicate your position in a mature, understandable fashion backed up by certifiable claims is a bit too high given the nature of this post to which I've responded. Indeed, I find it to be quite difficult to read at times (perhaps for this reason, a number of us started reading and then decided the pain was not worth it, to debunk a load of baseless claims). Furthermore, your terminology and understanding of basic Biblical concepts could stand to be improved substantially. You may call yourself a Christian, but I think you very much lack a true understanding of the message God is trying to convey to us to this very day. I think you have fallen prey to the relativistic beliefs of modern society and have attempted (and failed very miserably, might I add) to make the Bible to fit inside them. Very, very wrong, my friend. The Bible is absolute and cannot be twisted to fit the claims of moral relativism.

[RMadd]

I disagree he never said that man made God
Rocketqueen: read this....

A comment on Ryan's post: Men made God! Not the other way around!

RQ, you want some aloe vera?

[Rocketqueen]

well hell yes if it would help :wtf: is aloe vera going do for me haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa sleep would be better

[The Lithium]

Not really. We believe God made Man, so he's pretty much unchanging, and it doesn't matter what wide variety of beliefs people have of Him, as there's only one true one. Granted, you believe Man made God, so that pretty much hinders any possible belief in the absolute.
But come on... This wasn't at all my point from the start.

This is my point: I only think gays should be allowed to get married in churches and love either other like anyboy else does. Are you saying men and men - women and women shouldn't be allowed to love either other? Or are you saying something ever worse: Are you saying it is wrong?

[The Lithium]

I disagree he never said that man made God he said i should be able to believe In God the way i want if i read it right and God will search you in the ways you believe and dont believe untill you get it right A relationship that God wants with you not really that you want with him
No, I did say "Man Made God". I was pretty tired of this argument and I said that 'cause I was refering to the fact that God is not afraid of homosexuality. (At least that's my opinion, I know what you others think). But men are afraid of homosexuality, 'cause human beings are always so close-minded to new things and change.

[uncertaindrumer]

Are you saying it is wrong?

No, God does that. I'm just telling you what God says. In fact I find it funny that you say "Or are you aying something even worse". That would imply we could say something BAD, which is of course impossible if there is no God. Without God, morals don't exist, PERIOD.

And RoffeDH, please. You are not a Christian if you don't believe in Christ, which you really, clearly don't, because you listen to almost nothing which He said.

p.s. RMadd, rocketqueen IS creedsister.

[The Lithium]

No, God does that. I'm just telling you what God says.
A) I asked if YOU thought it was wrong, not of God does!
B) Well, then God is wrong!

And RoffeDH, please. You are not a Christian if you don't believe in Christ, which you really, clearly don't, because you listen to almost nothing which He said.
David, (RoffeDH), is the smartest Christian I can find around here! He think himself, he doesn't let a book do it for him.

[Ana4Stapp]

I couldn't believe you admitted I was right.

I said 'MAYBE'... :rolleyes:






Show me ONE country where AIDS has declined over the last fifty years...

Fifty years? AIDS just become a popular disease about twenty years-in my country, for instance ( 80's)
Anyway I can tell that my country has been sucesseful in stop the increase of AIDS and besides the access to free antiretroviral (ARV) drugs, the governement also encourages the use of comdoms. Only US governement seemed dont like it very much cuz this way our governement broke the patents of the medicine drugs waht clearly contradicts the economical interests of the big pharmaceutical companies.
drugshttp://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/gap/countries/brazil.htm



You always look at the smaller picture Ana. with both homosexuality and AIDS, you would have us renounce all that is moral to make a couple people happy, and instead doom a culture to a societal structure in which evils such as AIDS poverty and hunger continue to thrive and grow, thus worsening all the very problems you attempted to correct short-sightedly in the first place

Cant see things this way...I mean, maybe we cant solve every challenge we have in our modern society, but we still can try making better the people's lives and avoiding the rights of the gays couples we are doing just the opposite...

Well..and maybe admitting that is better having children being adopted for homossexuals than keep them on orphanages or streets, for instance make me this kind of person who looks the smaller picture... :rolleyes:

[Rocketqueen]

No, I did say "Man Made God". I was pretty tired of this argument and I said that 'cause I was refering to the fact that God is not afraid of homosexuality. (At least that's my opinion, I know what you others think). But men are afraid of homosexuality, 'cause human beings are always so close-minded to new things and change.
thank you bratt boy for clearing it up i get tired of da arguments too which is why i was not wit the program i cant keep as good as you brain :D HAAAAAAAAAAAAA yes its human nature be afraid of things and so forth Gods Always In Control Of The Good Bad And Ugly And There Is So Much Of It To EVERYTHING TURN TURN :note: :note: :note: Let Us Sing

[RMadd]

But come on... This wasn't at all my point from the start.
Regardless of whether it was your initial point, you said it & RQ was seemingly denying that you had said anything of the sort.

This is my point: I only think gays should be allowed to get married in churches and love either other like anyboy else does. Are you saying men and men - women and women shouldn't be allowed to love either other? Or are you saying something ever worse: Are you saying it is wrong?
You're putting words in my mouth a bit there. No, it's not alright for men to love men and women to love women. Since God has defined the only true love for anything He created as between a human male and a human female, we can throw out any other forms of "love:" between 2 males, 2 females, a man and his dog, and all the other forms of beastiality and necrophilia. I'm not saying homosexuality is quite the moral equivalent of having sex with animals, but they all go against God's desires & plans for us as the intelligent race of beings which He created.

[RMadd]

David, (RoffeDH), is the smartest Christian I can find around here! He think himself, he doesn't let a book do it for him.
well, you see, that's pretty much not Christianity if you ignore what the most sacred text of the religion has to say about how you should live your life and, instead, succumb to the moral degradation and relativistic claims that our modern society offers. he's a Christian only in name, most definitely not in practice.

[uncertaindrumer]

...

Fifty years?

A bigger time frame should only help, not hurt. Make it whatver tiemframe you like. The problem is GROWING, not decreasing. The reasons being that any country capable of the moral depravity of widespread condom use is the type which will breed the type of immorality that sets AIDS off in the first place.





Cant see things this way...I mean, maybe we cant solve every challenge we have in our modern society, but we still can try making better the people's lives and avoiding the rights of the gays couples we are doing just the opposite...

I was talking more about condoms and AIDS. As much as I abhor homosexuality, it is not a big issue for me like it is for some. While there are spillovers and I hope its widespread legality is never obtained, it is not nearly as big an issue as something like contraception or, of course, abortion.

Well..and maybe admitting that is better having children being adopted for homossexuals than keep them on orphanages or streets, for instance make me this kind of person who looks the smaller picture... :rolleyes:

Being adopted by a single person would be fine. But then being exposed to an invalid, immoral relationship between your "parents" from the very day you get adopted would certainly do no good for the kid.

[uncertaindrumer]

A) I asked if YOU thought it was wrong, not of God does!

That's a contradiction. If it is wrong, it is because it is contrary to God, if it is right, it is because it is from God.

B) Well, then God is wrong!

It is stupidity like this that makes people like me and RMadd jsut laugh at you instead of taking you seriously. Arguments agaisnt hte existance of God are one thing but saying God is wrong is like saying "right" is wrong. Gd by definition can't be wrong.


David, (RoffeDH), is the smartest Christian I can find around here!

That's ionteresting, seeing as he sn't one :rolleyes:

He think himself, he doesn't let a book do it for him.

Thinking for yourself is NOT a good thing when it is contrary to God.

[RoffeDH]

And RoffeDH, please. You are not a Christian if you don't believe in Christ, which you really, clearly don't, because you listen to almost nothing which He said.

First of... Thanks Lith, but I do look at the book and make logcal soulutions... But thanks anyway :D

"UNCERTAINDRUMMER! WHO ARE YOU TO SAY HE'S NOT A CHRISTIAN! I AM!" - God

Am I right? YES!

But to say this in my own words... Why aren't I a christian? Just becouse I don't belvie all that Paulus said? Or becouse I don't belvie in the OT word by word but by logical asumptions by looking at them at a historic way? I am more christian then you'll probobly ever know it seems...

Who's a christian if not he who think of Jesus as a savior?
And I very much do...

Well, I think I realized why no one's responding to your posts... misspelling, hard to follow... you're falling perilously close to creedsister's domain there fella.... but, I assume this is the post you've been itching for me & uncertain & eusebio to respond to, so here goes

Yes RMadd... I agree with you, I'm not the best to spell but I can talk ;) And you're not the only one to say I'm hard to follow, It's just that my brain have evoulved more then everyone elses ;) No just kidding... I want to get my 1000 of thoughts at the same time at as little as space as posible! That's the reason, I'll try giving you some better reading this time!

referring to another religion? yes, the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, but it's still considered part of the Christian heritage, b/c, believe it or not, it "forewarns" of Jesus' coming and all the fun stuff about how to live correctly to best please God.

YES! It's christian heritage! Nothing else! We're a "new" religion so we should only look at it as heritage! Yes it tells about a christ comming in the future and Jesus pretty much fitts that description with a LITTLE fantasy, but It's still LOGICAL! But it's not called the OLD TESTAMENT for nothing... It's becouse it's old and then the new testament with the new law came... To love one and another...

to what story are you referring? Noah, after he got off the ark? that's the only one that sounds familiar to your description. I'm not sure whose interpretation you're using, but pastors & youth pastors & sunday school teachers I've had have all pointed out that Noah did, in fact, sin there. yes, it's incest. believe it or not, the people in all those OT stories you read were every bit as sinful as us (some of them just knew better how to set their lives right with God).

Not shure but here I go... Genesis 19:30-38. The sons are called Moab and Ben-Ammi! The part is called Lots doughters at a direct translation...

What kind of a bible do you use? I have Bible 2000 It's translated from as original scripts as you can find and by nonchristians but by people who have studied YEARS in the fine art of translating ;) If something could mean something else they tell it and write down the other meaning aswell... It's the bible that's cost the most to translate and is the most accurat of them all, so it says...

Ummm, well, masturbation is pretty wrong, since it involves putting something (i.e. your own sexual pleasure and depravity) ahead of God (and not only if you skip church on Sunday to pinch one off in your bathroom sink). Aside from that, I really can't make heads or tails of what you're saying there, so I'll just leave it be....

Okey... MAN am I going to get shit for this... Here it goes

Did God create a sexualdrift? A will to "have intercourse" with... In your case... women? He did.
It's shown that a man can hold is sperm up to 3 weeks without masturbating then he per automat "cum" in his sleap... Do you tell me that this happens often to you? I don't think this is what God ment... I have no belive in that God would be that dumb. A wank isn't a sin in my eyes. God created it, it's nothing we just made up for fun? Is it? Does it mean that oral and anal sex is out of the question two? Even sex might be out of the question, for how many of the people in here think of enything else then the women/man you're haveing sex with, or at least to make the sex as good as possible? Not thinking of God? I'm not, I'm thinking of the women, but that draws attention from God... So we can't have sex? Right?

is their a problem with him deriving what he believes in from Jewish (I assume this is what you mean when you say "Jude," which, btw, is part of a Beatles song, not a world religion)? because, after all, Christianity is based in part on Judaism (as you might recall, I said this above w/ regard to your suggestion we more or less discard the OT). I think we've pretty well established that God doesn't look to kindly upon homosexuality in the OT. But you and Lith and a couple others are now saying that He thinks it's ok. So, just as I asked a few posts ago, wherein lies your Scriptural basis for this claim? Yes, God is Love. Yes, God loves all. But that doesn't mean that God loves our sins and doesn't care that we commit the very same sin again and again.

He hates it when we sin! He would love it if we never commited a nother sin again... YES!
But lets astablish what a sin is... The way I see it a sin is what draws attention from God and when you don't resekt other people. Do you agree?
The thing is... God told Abraham that you're children will be my tribe (something like that) so all of HIS children will be the tribe... Not the womens children. So the Judes made the soulution that men must be born in the religion but the women can be anyone... It's the man that's the importent one (hope you follow me so far). Then they thought "if the children of Abraham will be Gods child we must make a lot of children" there for the prohibitation of haveing sex with you wife weeks after she had her period and wait 'till she have her what-ever-it-is-called-in-englis-the-egg-thing-you-know, and if two men have sex or two women have sex then there can't be any children (a logical assumption).

Did you follow? You don't have to agree with me just accept it that you CAN see it this way, right?

So, you seemed to assert that I would read your post and would be forced to agree with you 100%. It seems to me that your own confidence in your ability to explicate your position in a mature, understandable fashion backed up by certifiable claims is a bit too high given the nature of this post to which I've responded. Indeed, I find it to be quite difficult to read at times (perhaps for this reason, a number of us started reading and then decided the pain was not worth it, to debunk a load of baseless claims)/.../

Yes it wasn't meant to be that serious as it might have seemed when you read it... Sorry about that...

Furthermore, your terminology and understanding of basic Biblical concepts could stand to be improved substantially. You may call yourself a Christian, but I think you very much lack a true understanding of the message God is trying to convey to us to this very day. I think you have fallen prey to the relativistic beliefs of modern society and have attempted (and failed very miserably, might I add) to make the Bible to fit inside them. Very, very wrong, my friend. The Bible is absolute and cannot be twisted to fit the claims of moral relativism

Wait wait wait! Who tought you the "terminology and understanding of basic Biblical concepts" and what are the "terminology and understanding of basic Biblical concepts"?

"I think you have fallen prey to the relativistic beliefs of modern society and have attempted" yeah! That's what every christian say when someone have a "brilliant" and "revolutionary" idea about how to read the bible... Just as in the "old days" when the women had to be quiet becouse Paulus had told them to shut up in that specific church or becouse they weren't used to be in church like men were and therfore didn't know how to act...

This is the same thing! Jesus never told us that homosexuality is wrong! Did he? NO! He told us to be like the children and they see nothing wrong with homosexuality(, if they're not beainwashed...)

Who says Paul (or what he's called in english) of all the people are right? He might be wrong? Thought of that? Have God told you that the bible is 100% right? It's written by man so it's must be wrong but based on the trouth! That's how I see it... I'm not saying he's not a child of God just that he might have gotten the wrong idea of what God ment...

Don't throw something new just becouse it doesn't fit YOUR world... It might just fit better then you think...

'cause human beings are always so close-minded to new things and change.

This is troue... No one can claim otherwise... BUT I understand WHY you're so closed minded with the bible and christianity... 'Couse it's the trouth, and the trouth can only be in one way and therefore if I'm right then he must be wrong... Witch is right... BUT if he's right then you must be wrong... And you can see things in different light...
Take bigbang as example... One of the stories in genesis about how the earth was created is rather interesting, it's the precise way that the Big Bang theory say... First there was light (a BIG BANG), and earth was created, there was land, and the sky was broken from the sea (clearly the ozonlayer), then god created the fishes, then the plants... Etc. and lastly man!

IT FITS! YES YES YES! :D :P ;)
But!... When the Big Bang theory first cam people were chocked!

Then we have the "we are the centrum of the universe and the sun circle around us"... Shall I contineu?

(Hope you read it all! And that you didn't find it hard to read)

[RoffeDH]

That's a contradiction. If it is wrong, it is because it is contrary to God, if it is right, it is because it is from God.

With you on that, but he ment what you feel... If you would think that hey... This thing with the sun circeling around the earth thing wasn't right even if "god" say so ('couse that's what the priests told you, god said it) I think it's the other way around, the earth around the sun!


It is stupidity like this that makes people like me and RMadd jsut laugh at you instead of taking you seriously. Arguments agaisnt hte existance of God are one thing but saying God is wrong is like saying "right" is wrong. Gd by definition can't be wrong.

Toataly agree with you... Lith IF God exists he must be ritght even if you don't agree!

That's ionteresting, seeing as he sn't one :rolleyes:

I know you heavn't read my post yet! But WHO THE F'CK ARE YOU TO SAY I'M NOT! I'm tierd to hear that! What make's you think you're one?


Thinking for yourself is NOT a good thing when it is contrary to God.

Did Jesus tell you that God and the bible are the same? The bible is written by MAN not GOD!

I'm getting a bit pissed off I feal! :mad1: :rolleyes:

[Rocketqueen]

i dont know where it is right now and lord knows i dont feel like putting my contacts in and looking it up but the bible says and indacates that it was written a long time ago by men by the holy ghost now if you read on you can tell who was before and who was after and who it was given to know the mystery Of God Forgive me i really got nothing out the book of Esther buts its amazing how a friend of mine said The Lord Gave Him A Study On it and im like why his awnser did bring me understanding it was like one little verse in their as i recall she was like going some place and some of their relation had died and i think it was her daughters or steps or sisters i cant recall but that wanted to go with he and she told,em to stay with the dead now what i cant figure out all over the bible it teaches about life and death why would The Lord Reveal That topic to him from the book of ESTHER its just one of those things that make ya go ummmmmmmmmmmmm

[RMadd]

Not shure but here I go... Genesis 19:30-38. The sons are
called Moab and Ben-Ammi! The part is called Lots doughters at a direct
translation...
I can't really recall that story (sounds familiar, but that's it), so I'll have to take a look
at it...

What kind of a bible do you use? I have Bible 2000 It's
translated from as original scripts as you can find and by nonchristians but by people
who have studied YEARS in the fine art of translating
something could mean something else they tell it and write down the other meaning
aswell... It's the bible that's cost the most to translate and is the most accurat of
them all, so it says...
NIV (New Int'l Version)... from what I understand, this is the most popular text
today. I'll admit that alot of meaning is likely lost in the translations between
languages from the original Hebrew or... whatever the language of the OT was.


Did God create a sexualdrift? A will to "have intercourse"
with... In your case... women? He did.
It's shown that a man can hold is sperm up to 3 weeks without masturbating then he
per automat "cum" in his sleap... Do you tell me that this happens often to you? I
don't think this is what God ment... I have no belive in that God would be that
dumb. A wank isn't a sin in my eyes. God created it, it's nothing we just made up for
fun? Is it? Does it mean that oral and anal sex is out of the question two? Even sex
might be out of the question, for how many of the people in here think of enything
else then the women/man you're haveing sex with, or at least to make the sex as
good as possible? Not thinking of God? I'm not, I'm thinking of the women, but that
draws attention from God... So we can't have sex? Right?
Well, God says it's sinful to place anything ahead of Him: women, boobies, etc.
So, with regard to intercourse, it depends on your intentions. I'm not a scholar on
this by any means, but my understanding is that, if you truly love her, and she's your
wife, and your intent is to procreate, then sex is alright. Here's what St. Augustine
has to say about it in Book XIV, Chapter 16 of his text City of God: (this thing's
being retarded, so I'll simply post the link right here (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120114.htm)... but read Chapters 16, 18,
21-22, as those are the most pertinent to the discussion.

[RMadd]

He hates it when we sin! He would love it if we never commited a nother sin again... YES!
But lets astablish what a sin is... The way I see it a sin is what draws attention from God and when you don't resekt other people. Do you agree?
The thing is... God told Abraham that you're children will be my tribe (something like that) so all of HIS children will be the tribe... Not the womens children. So the Judes made the soulution that men must be born in the religion but the women can be anyone... It's the man that's the importent one (hope you follow me so far). Then they thought "if the children of Abraham will be Gods child we must make a lot of children" there for the prohibitation of haveing sex with you wife weeks after she had her period and wait 'till she have her what-ever-it-is-called-in-englis-the-egg-thing-you-know, and if two men have sex or two women have sex then there can't be any children (a logical assumption).

Did you follow? You don't have to agree with me just accept it that you CAN see it this way, right?
Honestly, I didn't follow. I can't really see the parallel you're trying to draw between sin and Jews tracing their ancestry paternally, but maybe that's just me.


"I think you have fallen prey to the relativistic beliefs of modern society and have attempted" yeah! That's what every christian say when someone have a "brilliant" and "revolutionary" idea about how to read the bible... Just as in the "old days" when the women had to be quiet becouse Paulus had told them to shut up in that specific church or becouse they weren't used to be in church like men were and therfore didn't know how to act...
well, when this "brilliant" and "revolutionary" form is culled from popular society and is a starkly different understanding than that which has been in use for at least, say, 1,950 years (plus all those years when the OT was written), I become a bit suspect of this newer form.

This is the same thing! Jesus never told us that homosexuality is wrong! Did he? NO! He told us to be like the children and they see nothing wrong with homosexuality(, if they're not beainwashed...)
well, the way my denomination teaches the Bible (and I'm sure this is the case with others, as well), is that the OT is Law (a mirror, to see our sins, is the analogy I recall) and the NT is Gospel (I can't quite remember the analogy for the NT). In any matter, Jesus' job wasn't to come and give people all sorts of rules for their lives. They already had them w/ Jewish tradition, not to mention all the Roman laws they were living under at the time. Jesus commanded us to love, above all. And if you feel we (Uncertain & myself) "be hatin' on" homosexuals, recall that, above, it was said that we are to love the sinner, but not the sin. thus, a homosexual is a person whom we are to love, but we hate the specific sin of homosexuality and anal intercourse, of which most are unrepentant or, if they are, continue to act on it anyhoo.

Have God told you that the bible is 100% right? It's written by man so it's must be wrong but based on the trouth! That's how I see it... I'm not saying he's not a child of God just that he might have gotten the wrong idea of what God ment...
Well, Jesus said that "scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking..."

Don't throw something new just becouse it doesn't fit YOUR world... It might just fit better then you think...
2 things:
1) "my world," as you call it, seems to be the generally accepted understanding of homosexuality in a Christian context for... as long as it's been around
2) likewise, don't throw out the old interpretation when you/society comes across something brighter, shinier, flashier... the Bible is absolute and is always the same. God never changes.



This is troue... No one can claim otherwise... BUT I understand WHY you're so closed minded with the bible and christianity...
well, if by "close-minded" you mean, "accepts only one teaching of the Bible and not the common, modern social interpretation that neglects substantial chunks of it," then yes, i'm quite close-minded. thanks for noticing.
And you can see things in different light...
Take bigbang as example... One of the stories in genesis about how the earth was created is rather interesting, it's the precise way that the Big Bang theory say... First there was light (a BIG BANG), and earth was created, there was land, and the sky was broken from the sea (clearly the ozonlayer), then god created the fishes, then the plants... Etc. and lastly man!
of course, the Big Bang Theory really doesn't say anything of a Supreme Being (i.e. God) that created world, but that a bunch of nothing simply went <boom> and here we are today.

[Rocketqueen]

im going pass this reply and think about it so i can come back and keep it going :D uh uh uh its late im going to bed now yea tired and stuff oh yes jesus saves in stuff uh uh uh dont forget to say your prayers uh uh uh they will be awnsered uh uh acording to the time they were recived uh uh uh we are still on hold uh uh HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :clock: :clock: :clock: uh uh uh clocks are cool :goodnight :goodnight

[uncertaindrumer]

With you on that, but he ment what you feel... If you would think that hey... This thing with the sun circeling around the earth thing wasn't right even if "god" say so ('couse that's what the priests told you, god said it) I think it's the other way around, the earth around the sun!




Toataly agree with you... Lith IF God exists he must be ritght even if you don't agree!

Indeed.



I know you heavn't read my post yet! But WHO THE F'CK ARE YOU TO SAY I'M NOT! I'm tierd to hear that! What make's you think you're one?

I actually know very little about you, I am basing my opinion on what you have said so far. Your next sentence re-inforces my view.




Did Jesus tell you that God and the bible are the same? The bible is written by MAN not GOD!

WRITTEN, physically by man but inspired by God and free from error. And if you don't believe that, you simply are NOT a Christian, at least not in the use of the term which I intend when I say it.

I'm getting a bit pissed off I feal! :mad1: :rolleyes:

I certainly don't mean to insult but I understand Lith's position more than yours--if you believe in Christ, do what he goshdarn said. At least Lith doesn't claim to believe in Him.

[uncertaindrumer]

This is the same thing! Jesus never told us that homosexuality is wrong! Did he? NO! He told us to be like the children and they see nothing wrong with homosexuality(, if they're not beainwashed...)

This is absolutely absurd. There is no way to prove what or what not a child would feel is repugnant if left completely to their own devices. And even if there was, this is clearly NOT what Jesus was talking about. Jesus was talking about the fact that Children are innocent of any crime against God and therefore we must all become liek them to enter Heaven.

And you are right, RoffeDH, the Bible must first be shown to be inspired--but that is a totally different argument. Me and RMadd are Christians. That means we believe the Bible to be inspired by God and totally innerrant. Thus, you can SEE why we would think homosexuality is wrong, right? Althoguh you are right that we need more than just a book, we need an interpreter, but that is a TOTALLY different conversation :D

[RoffeDH]

WRITTEN, physically by man but inspired by God and free from error. And if you don't believe that, you simply are NOT a Christian, at least not in the use of the term which I intend when I say it.

Free from error! MY AS IT'S FREE FROM ERROR today, even RMadd said it can't be. Thats an interpertation question! It never claims to be, does it? And still... Who are you to say that? Do you read the bible? Read my quote!

I certainly don't mean to insult but I understand Lith's position more than yours--if you believe in Christ, do what he goshdarn said. At least Lith doesn't claim to believe in Him.

What did Jesus say?

Mat 5:17-20 (translated from the swedish bible 2000 by David) Don't think that I have come to revoke the law or the profets. I haven't come to revoke but to fullfill

He fullfilled the law and therefor the law shouldn't be with us today!

Joh 5:24 (translated from the swedish bible 2000 by David) Truly, I tell you: he who hear my word and belive in he who have sent me, he shall have eternal life

So that's all it takes! Belive in Jesus and God...

[RoffeDH]

Honestly, I didn't follow. I can't really see the parallel you're trying to draw between sin and Jews tracing their ancestry paternally, but maybe that's just me.

No RMadd it's not just you... But come on! Tell me... What dont you understand? More specific!

well, when this "brilliant" and "revolutionary" form is culled from popular society and is a starkly different understanding than that which has been in use for at least, say, 1,950 years (plus all those years when the OT was written), I become a bit suspect of this newer form.

WHAT! Did you ever read my post? What about women shutting up in church? What about the priests being the law becouse "god told them to" all that! The bible is being interperated every day in a new way, ask your granparants (if the live) what they thought? Perhaps God was an evil god? That's probobly it. Do you know that your country was based on interperating the bible in a new way, right?

The first christians thought that Jesus would come back in just a few years, they said "don't get married, you'll have no time for it!" and stuff like that. So it's bullshit about the bible being interpertaded the same way for 1,950 years, since there was no bible back then since it was written about 100-200 years later by christians! :eek:


well, the way my denomination teaches the Bible (and I'm sure this is the case with others, as well), is that the OT is Law (a mirror, to see our sins, is the analogy I recall) and the NT is Gospel (I can't quite remember the analogy for the NT). In any matter, Jesus' job wasn't to come and give people all sorts of rules for their lives. They already had them w/ Jewish tradition, not to mention all the Roman laws they were living under at the time. Jesus commanded us to love, above all. And if you feel we (Uncertain & myself) "be hatin' on" homosexuals, recall that, above, it was said that we are to love the sinner, but not the sin. thus, a homosexual is a person whom we are to love, but we hate the specific sin of homosexuality and anal intercourse, of which most are unrepentant or, if they are, continue to act on it anyhoo.

Haven't seen you has hating people, just that you can't see the bible in a different light.


Well, Jesus said that "scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking..."

Where?

2 things:
1) "my world," as you call it, seems to be the generally accepted understanding of homosexuality in a Christian context for... as long as it's been around


Yes, probobly is, and have been, but that doesn't make it less of an interpertation

2) likewise, don't throw out the old interpretation when you/society comes across something brighter, shinier, flashier... the Bible is absolute and is always the same. God never changes.

Well, I have disscused it with a lot of priests, even one who's open homosexual and one that supports homosexuallity and one who's both against homosexuallity and female priests... So I'm pretty shure of my belife but I'll have that in mind if you have a mine in mind ;)




well, if by "close-minded" you mean, "accepts only one teaching of the Bible and not the common, modern social interpretation that neglects substantial chunks of it," then yes, i'm quite close-minded. thanks for noticing.

of course, the Big Bang Theory really doesn't say anything of a Supreme Being (i.e. God) that created world, but that a bunch of nothing simply went <boom> and here we are today.[/QUOTE]

[RoffeDH]

This is absolutely absurd. There is no way to prove what or what not a child would feel is repugnant if left completely to their own devices. And even if there was, this is clearly NOT what Jesus was talking about. Jesus was talking about the fact that Children are innocent of any crime against God and therefore we must all become liek them to enter Heaven. You're right... Just wanted you too see that this is alsow an interperation just like the rest of the bible... What say that you are right? What say that we shouldn't lay down on the floor and scream till we get our way? Nothing! Exept the LOGICAL interpertation... Plus it was four in the morning ;)


And you are right, RoffeDH, the Bible must first be shown to be inspired--but that is a totally different argument. Me and RMadd are Christians. That means we believe the Bible to be inspired by God and totally innerrant. Thus, you can SEE why we would think homosexuality is wrong, right? Althoguh you are right that we need more than just a book, we need an interpreter, but that is a TOTALLY different conversation :D

I do see your point... But you seems to be lacing understanging of my point... But if the bible is INSPIRED by God, and not written by him then man might have made a misstake, right? But lets say the bible is free from error and that it's just the way God wanted it, then my point still stand...

The Judes made logical asumptions, plust jesus came and fullfilled the law and there for the homosexuall sin!

[RoffeDH]

im going pass this reply and think about it so i can come back and keep it going :D uh uh uh its late im going to bed now yea tired and stuff oh yes jesus saves in stuff uh uh uh dont forget to say your prayers uh uh uh they will be awnsered uh uh acording to the time they were recived uh uh uh we are still on hold uh uh HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :clock: :clock: :clock: uh uh uh clocks are cool :goodnight :goodnight

It's fun reading, but what did this bring to the disscustion!?

[RoffeDH]

I can't really recall that story (sounds familiar, but that's it), so I'll have to take a look
at it...

Yes! Pleas, do that!

NIV (New Int'l Version)... from what I understand, this is the most popular text
today. I'll admit that alot of meaning is likely lost in the translations between
languages from the original Hebrew or... whatever the language of the OT was.

Yes, the scriptuer was written in hebrew. But if it's "likely lost in translations between languages from original hebrew" then why use it? Why is it so good if it might be wrong? Just becouse it's written in a good way?

One psalm in the plsalt (the book after Job), can't remember witch one at the moment but one. In the most poppular bible in sweden it's realy beautifull and poetic, christians translated it. In the bible 2000 it's 1/3 shorter and not half as poetical... It's correct on the other hand... The thing is that christians wanted it to be beautifull and not correct.



Well, God says it's sinful to place anything ahead of Him: women, boobies, etc.
So, with regard to intercourse, it depends on your intentions. I'm not a scholar on
this by any means, but my understanding is that, if you truly love her, and she's your
wife, and your intent is to procreate, then sex is alright. Here's what St. Augustine
has to say about it in Book XIV, Chapter 16 of his text City of God: (this thing's
being retarded, so I'll simply post the link right here (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120114.htm)... but read Chapters 16, 18,
21-22, as those are the most pertinent to the discussion.[/size][/font]



Okey... No she's not my wife... I'm 18 ;)
Jesus said he was the trouth, and if it's the trouth that I want to make love to her and she to me why not, it's the trouth. You're saying that condoms are wrong? That p-pills are wrong? That sex for plesure is wrong? NO! How can it be! God made sex enjoyable for a couse and I can't see how it would be wrong to have sex for pleasure.

I think what God means is that if he calles you shouldn't have sex instead, or that when you have said to god "now I should pray with you" and then go and have sex, that's to put sex first..! And God second!

I pretty much didn't understand most of the text but what I got from it is that you shouldn't have sex for pleasure but for making children... And I clearly don't agree...

[RMadd]

I do see your point... But you seems to be lacing understanging of my point... But if the bible is INSPIRED by God, and not written by him then man might have made a misstake, right? But lets say the bible is free from error and that it's just the way God wanted it, then my point still stand...
well, if it's inspired by God (he tells the writers what to write), and God is perfect, then one could logically conclude that no errors exist.

[RMadd]

Yes, the scriptuer was written in hebrew. But if it's "likely lost in translations between languages from original hebrew" then why use it? Why is it so good if it might be wrong? Just becouse it's written in a good way?
much for the same reason that people still read translations of other texts, both ancient and modern

One psalm in the plsalt (the book after Job), can't remember witch one at the moment but one. In the most poppular bible in sweden it's realy beautifull and poetic, christians translated it. In the bible 2000 it's 1/3 shorter and not half as poetical... It's correct on the other hand... The thing is that christians wanted it to be beautifull and not correct.
so you think your translation of the Bible is right simply because it's a quicker read, and doesn't use ornate and flowery language? see, I would assess the quality of a translation based on its substance, i.e. what it says, and not in how many words (or, in your case, how few words) it takes to get a point across.

Okey... No she's not my wife... I'm 18 ;)
Jesus said he was the trouth, and if it's the trouth that I want to make love to her and she to me why not, it's the trouth. You're saying that condoms are wrong? That p-pills are wrong? That sex for plesure is wrong? NO! How can it be! God made sex enjoyable for a couse and I can't see how it would be wrong to have sex for pleasure.
what does Jesus being the Truth have anything to do with you truthfully wanting to fork your girl? that's perhaps one of the most ludicrous connections I've seen made in here...
Condoms & The Pill are not wrong when used between a man and his wife who, though desiring to conceive later, may not desire a child at the present.
As for the sex and pleasure point, seriously, read what St. Augustine had to say about it. He explicated the Bible's position far better than I think I could convey.

I think what God means is that if he calles you shouldn't have sex instead, or that when you have said to god "now I should pray with you" and then go and have sex, that's to put sex first..! And God second!
well, He's called us all to be His servants and to follow His words, so doing anything that contravenes God's word is to put God second (everyone does it every day, not just with premarital intercourse, but with any other sin, so to deny that you are so doing demonstrates your pride and lack of humility and is therefore futile).

I pretty much didn't understand most of the text but what I got from it is that you shouldn't have sex for pleasure but for making children... And I clearly don't agree...
ah, but Uncertain and I are here debating not what you think, but what God says.

[uncertaindrumer]

Free from error!

Yes.

MY AS IT'S FREE FROM ERROR today, even RMadd said it can't be.


??

Thats an interpertation question!

Most things are.

It never claims to be, does it?

which means absolutely nothing. Generally a book claiming to be free from error means it has error in it.

And still... Who are you to say that?

A Believer.

Do you read the bible?

Often.

Read my quote!

Which one?

What did Jesus say?

A lot.

Mat 5:17-20 (translated from the swedish bible 2000 by David) Don't think that I have come to revoke the law or the profets. I haven't come to revoke but to fullfill

Funny... I would have brought this up myself...

He fullfilled the law and therefor the law shouldn't be with us today!

I almost fell over reading this. You took a passage that was speaking TO YOU, AGAINST YOUR CLAIMS, and tried to twist it into meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it says. He says He did NOT come to revoke the law, which is what YOU are trying to do. Don't be absurd.

Joh 5:24 (translated from the swedish bible 2000 by David) Truly, I tell you: he who hear my word and belive in he who have sent me, he shall have eternal life

You have heard His word but you refuse to believe--you are stil maintaining that the Bible has errors.

So that's all it takes! Belive in Jesus and God...

Do I NEED to go show you the gazillions of other things it says to do in the Bible? Such as selling all your posessions, partaking of Jesus' Flesh and Blood, etc. etc. etc.? The "All you need to do is believe in Jesus and God" is bullcrap invented by lazy immoral sluts who didn't want to have to do anything but still wanted to claim they were being "Christian".

[uncertaindrumer]

Jesus said he was the trouth,

Do you mean truth? Because you can't possibly...

and if it's the trouth that I want to make love to her and she to me why not, it's the trouth.

This is quite literally the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. Even the most devoted Satanist wouldn't try to justify something with an argument this pathetic. It's also the TRUTH that Hitler killed 6 million Jews... is THAT okay? Give me a break. Your arguments are so pitiful I feel bad for taking advantage of their weakness...

You're saying that condoms are wrong?

Most certainly so. They introduce a foreign element into something God always intended to be natural.


That sex for plesure is wrong? NO!

MOST DEFINITELY SO! READ the Bible, man. READ IT.

How can it be!

How can it NOT be?

God made sex enjoyable for a couse and I can't see how it would be wrong to have sex for pleasure.

You are a sick sick eighteen year old. VICES are enjoyable. That is WHY they are VICES. We don't do bad things because they feel BAD, we do bad things because they feel GOOD. EVERY CRIME AGAINST GOD OF ALL TIME, was something that the person doing it WANTED to do, and with your lack of logic you'd have us believe that whatever feels good is good. I feel cheap. Arguing with someone so clearly unintelligent is nasty indeed...

I think what God means is that if he calles you shouldn't have sex instead, or that when you have said to god "now I should pray with you" and then go and have sex, that's to put sex first..! And God second!

What YOU think is totally irrelevant (again, its always "I" this and "I" that), as proven by your ridiculous notions over the past few paragraphs, all of which just attempt (pitifully badly) to justify horrific crimes so that YOU can have a little fleeting sexual pleasure at the expense of your eternal soul. (by the way I am using "you" in the plural sense here, not the singular. I'm speaking of the masses, not you in particular)

I pretty much didn't understand most of the text but what I got from it is that you shouldn't have sex for pleasure but for making children... And I clearly don't agree...

You should have Sex for with your spouse (and ONLY your spouse) because you love them, and to be open to the possibiltiy of procreating. And once again, it's all "I" this and "I" that. Stop thinking about what you WANT to be true, and maybe you'll get somewhere. You don't AGREE, just because it is slightly inconvenient for you, and it is a sad sad attempt at justifying something clearly wrong.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

That is Christ speaking. And yet you would have us believing you are a Christian? Sure. Whatever.

Do NOT decieve yourself into thinking you are following Jesus by committing adultery. If for no other reason (although there are plenty), that at least is one clear reason why you have no idea what on Earth you believe. You philosophy as you have laid it out it "If it feels good, do it" which is about as far from the truth as one can get.

[uncertaindrumer]

WHAT! Did you ever read my post? What about women shutting up in church? What about the priests being the law becouse "god told them to" all that! The bible is being interperated every day in a new way, ask your granparants (if the live) what they thought? Perhaps God was an evil god? That's probobly it. Do you know that your country was based on interperating the bible in a new way, right?

Thousands interpret it differently, and I hardly want to get into an argment about WHICH Christians are the ones who are correct right now, but know that there is a Church that has been around for two thousand years and preaches the same thigns now it did then.

The first christians thought that Jesus would come back in just a few years,

I think He'll come back tommorrow. Will He? Probably not. But by thinking He will come back tommorrow, I have ever the mroe reason to act appropriately TODAY, and since I never know WHEN He will come back, It is better to be prepared, wouldn't you say?

they said "don't get married, you'll have no time for it!" and stuff like that.

Your documentation is amazing :rolleyes:

So it's bullshit about the bible being interpertaded the same way for 1,950 years,

No, it isn't.

since there was no bible back then

Yes there was. At least, the books were written. They were not put into a "Bible" iuntil a while later though.

since it was written about 100-200 years later by christians! :eek:

Actually it was writtem by the Apostles but I hardly want to debate that since you have about as much historical basis as a fish has hair.


Haven't seen you has hating people, just that you can't see the bible in a different light.

Dude, you want to get rid of the Bible, not see it in a different light. Let's say things as they are.



Well, I have disscused it with a lot of priests, even one who's open homosexual and one that supports homosexuallity and one who's both against homosexuallity and female priests... So I'm pretty shure of my belife but I'll have that in mind if you have a mine in mind ;)

I'm really curious what kind of "priests" you are talking to.

[RoffeDH]

well, if it's inspired by God (he tells the writers what to write), and God is perfect, then one could logically conclude that no errors exist.

No... The writers may have wrote the wrong thing down... That's a possibility!

[RoffeDH]

much for the same reason that people still read translations of other texts, both ancient and modern


so you think your translation of the Bible is right simply because it's a quicker read, and doesn't use ornate and flowery language? see, I would assess the quality of a translation based on its substance, i.e. what it says, and not in how many words (or, in your case, how few words) it takes to get a point across.


what does Jesus being the Truth have anything to do with you truthfully wanting to fork your girl? that's perhaps one of the most ludicrous connections I've seen made in here...
Condoms & The Pill are not wrong when used between a man and his wife who, though desiring to conceive later, may not desire a child at the present.
As for the sex and pleasure point, seriously, read what St. Augustine had to say about it. He explicated the Bible's position far better than I think I could convey.


well, He's called us all to be His servants and to follow His words, so doing anything that contravenes God's word is to put God second (everyone does it every day, not just with premarital intercourse, but with any other sin, so to deny that you are so doing demonstrates your pride and lack of humility and is therefore futile).


ah, but Uncertain and I are here debating not what you think, but what God says.

Yes and what I think that God means and what people have interpertated his words like in the bible! So it's about what I think and what YOU think, can't come away from that!

SO MUCH TO WRITE! SO LITTLE TIME!

The thing about trouthfully wanting to fork my girl... Hard to explain but yes... That's basiclally it...

[Ana4Stapp]

MOST DEFINITELY SO! READ the Bible, man. READ IT.

???? I cant believe I read that! :eek: SEX can be for pleasure, anyway go to my question below

You should have Sex for with your spouse (and ONLY your spouse) because you love them, and to be open to the possibiltiy of procreating. And once again, it's all "I" this and "I" that. Stop thinking about what you WANT to be true, and maybe you'll get somewhere. You don't AGREE, just because it is slightly inconvenient for you, and it is a sad sad attempt at justifying something clearly wrong. "

Well , uncertain...you are afirming that sex is only for procriating...okay (even though obviouslyI cant agree with that) answer me that: what about couples that CANT have children? Look, is not because the spouses dont want to having children but thet CANT.

For instance when one of the spouse is sterile or something? Is this marriage 'cursed'? and also is this marriage 'qualified' to carry on? if sex is ONLY to procriate, this marriage has no more sense? Adopting can be considereted in this situation? (cause you anyway you and your wife couldnt have children...)

Seemed that I asked you too much, ( sorry! :o ) but Im 'curious' of your (religious) answers ... ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

"

Well , uncertain...you are afirming that sex is only for procriating...

No no no. You totally missed my point.

okay (even though obviouslyI cant agree with that)

That's fine cuz I don't!

answer me that: what about couples that CANT have children?

No problem. They can enjoy each other's love to their hearts' content.



For instance when one of the spouse is sterile or something? Is this marriage 'cursed'? and also is this marriage 'qualified' to carry on? if sex is ONLY to procriate, this marriage has no more sense? Adopting can be considereted in this situation? (cause you anyway you and your wife couldnt have children...)

Seemed that I asked you too much, ( sorry! :o ) but Im 'curious' of your (religious) answers ... ;)

None of your questions matter because they are based on a faulty (not your fault, I might have explained it badly) assumption of the position. Thye must be OPEN to creation, but it is only one of two parts, the other being of course their love for one another.

[RMadd]

oy, i'm getting sick of this... i've basically said the same thing over & over 20 times, and am obviously getting nowhere... i'm out

[uncertaindrumer]

oy, i'm getting sick of this... i've basically said the same thing over & over 20 times, and am obviously getting nowhere... i'm out

I also. When someone really literally thinks that if it feels good you should do it, no amount of logic or reasoning will help.

[eusebioCBR]

oy, i'm getting sick of this... i've basically said the same thing over & over 20 times, and am obviously getting nowhere... i'm out
I came to that conclusion four pages ago!!! :nutty:

[The Lithium]

You're putting words in my mouth a bit there. No, it's not alright for men to love men and women to love women. Since God has defined the only true love for anything He created as between a human male and a human female, we can throw out any other forms of "love:" between 2 males, 2 females, a man and his dog, and all the other forms of beastiality and necrophilia. I'm not saying homosexuality is quite the moral equivalent of having sex with animals, but they all go against God's desires & plans for us as the intelligent race of beings which He created.
Try not to involved God in this, man. Try to think by yourself. Do you, (not God), think it's wrong? This book control you so much, you don't even have your own opinions anymore! And that's not just directed to you RMadd. So don't take it too personally.

well, you see, that's pretty much not Christianity if you ignore what the most sacred text of the religion has to say about how you should live your life and, instead, succumb to the moral degradation and relativistic claims that our modern society offers. he's a Christian only in name, most definitely not in practice.
Yeah, I can understand that... Makes life a little easier and you feel better when you live a healthy life and hate gays, 'cause God tells you to do. But that's just not my way to live.

It is stupidity like this that makes people like me and RMadd jsut laugh at you instead of taking you seriously. Arguments agaisnt hte existance of God are one thing but saying God is wrong is like saying "right" is wrong. Gd by definition can't be wrong.
As if I wasn't laughing at you two already? But I said that to show how damn little I care for God and how he says I should live my life. I can decide that myself, thank you...

And about that whole Christianity thing with David, (RoffeDH)... If he claims himself a Christian, you can't say he's not, 'cause that's none of your business. And it depends on how you look at Christianity and what it takes to be a Christian. You can't follow the book blindly. I mean, who here thinks God created the earth in 6 day and rested the 7th? Who here thinks men doesn't have an endless amunt of sperm?

Those are just two things that's totally stupid and out of line to believe. And the "It's not being alright to be gay"-thing is totally another!

[Rocketqueen]

ya know what i dont know how long it really took 6 Days in my opion bratt boy i think it was created IN ONE DAY And The 7th day 7 is always coming up in the bible i dont think know one has learned the secret of its deeper meaning it means more when read with opend eyes i for one believe it only took God One Day To Create The World And The 6 days was used and written as more of a parable to show an example , thats just my opion , Im a strong believer Man In The Reasons Of The Parables ,

[The Lithium]

Ever heard of something called Big Bang? Might have something to do with it all.

[RMadd]

Try not to involved God in this, man. Try to think by yourself. Do you, (not God), think it's wrong? This book control you so much, you don't even have your own opinions anymore! And that's not just directed to you RMadd. So don't take it too personally.
I guess, technically, I don't have my own opinions. But, Lith, you too don't have your own opinions. How do you think you'd feel about this if you sat down & formulated it on your own without talking to friends, reading/watching the news, etc? I don't remember who said it, but they said, more or less, that everything that is said anymore has already been said.
Plus, it's not the book that controls me, you fool. I consider myself God's servant, plain and simple. You, likewise, are a slave to society's way of thought. It's really no different. I base my beliefs on a book, you base yours in what society says. Nothing is original anymore. And I will not place myself first, because, as I believe, that violates the First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before me.

[RMadd]

Ever heard of something called Big Bang? Might have something to do with it all.
Ever heard of something called Creation? Might have something to do with it all.
And, on a side note, almost every civilization, pretty much up until our modern society, has some form of their own Creation myth, in which their people was created by some Supreme Being, and not some scientific anomaly, or whatever you want to call it....

[The Lithium]

I guess, technically, I don't have my own opinions. But, Lith, you too don't have your own opinions. How do you think you'd feel about this if you sat down & formulated it on your own without talking to friends, reading/watching the news, etc? I don't remember who said it, but they said, more or less, that everything that is said anymore has already been said.
Plus, it's not the book that controls me, you fool. I consider myself God's servant, plain and simple. You, likewise, are a slave to society's way of thought. It's really no different. I base my beliefs on a book, you base yours in what society says. Nothing is original anymore. And I will not place myself first, because, as I believe, that violates the First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before me.
Yeah well, can't argue with that... You're actually right. But if I put it this way. I know technically you think the whole gay-thing is wrong, but does gay-people discust you and are you, how to say... Like a rasist to them? 'Cause if you have a strong beliefe in the Bible and technically think it's wrong that's a point of view. But if you "hate" them and have prejudices about them that's rasism.

Ever heard of something called Creation? Might have something to do with it all.
And, on a side note, almost every civilization, pretty much up until our modern society, has some form of their own Creation myth, in which their people was created by some Supreme Being, and not some scientific anomaly, or whatever you want to call it....
I was gonna use that argument against you...! :D There's been tons of religions ever since men started to build a civilization. What makes your true and the others false?

[Rocketqueen]

i will tell ya bratt face because a bunch of morons got together along time ago that could,nt find their ass out of hole and did,nt understand God or what it was all about so they all went their own way And Tried To Becomes God Their Self And Feast Of The Weak And The Blind And Through The Years Some Even Got Better At It But From What I Hear These Days Damn They Need To Go Back And Do It Again Because Their Becoming Out Numbered The False Prophets And Relgions in a nut shell thats how it got started

[RMadd]

Yeah well, can't argue with that... You're actually right. But if I put it this way. I know technically you think the whole gay-thing is wrong, but does gay-people discust you and are you, how to say... Like a rasist to them? 'Cause if you have a strong beliefe in the Bible and technically think it's wrong that's a point of view. But if you "hate" them and have prejudices about them that's rasism.
First off, I think the generally-accepted term for 'dislike of homosexuals' is 'homophobia,' although many people, such as Uncertain & myself, don't actually fear them, we just have religious grounds for opposing the act of homosexuality. Racism strictly applies to race.
In any matter, I posted wayyy above (maybe my 1st post? i can't recall which) that I don't hate homosexuals, don't even dislike them. I work or have worked with people, or have friends who are homosexual. I have nothing against them in and of themselves. I merely dislike the particular sin in which they engage. 'Twas said above, Love the sinner, not the sin. And that's honestly how I feel.

I was gonna use that argument against you...! :D There's been tons of religions ever since men started to build a civilization. What makes your true and the others false?
simple: my belief in an Absolute truth, an Absolute right and wrong. I believe there exists but one way to Heaven (through Jesus Christ), and that anyone who believes otherwise is going to Hell. I know I'll be called close-minded for it (after all, someone already did), but it's my belief, so you have to accept it. You might not like it, but in the spirit of your relativism, you should accept that I have every right to believe what I want, and not tell me I'm wrong (that's the great thing about this dichotomy: as an absolutist, one can say "you are wrong" and have no reason to say otherwise; as a relativist, one can say "you are wrong" but then, as a relativist, would be making an absolutist statement. do you follow?)

[RoffeDH]

I also. When someone really literally thinks that if it feels good you should do it, no amount of logic or reasoning will help.

F'uck you! I never said that if it feels good you should do it! NEVER! You're putting words in my mouth! What I ment was if you feel you have gods blessing it can't be wrong!

Were not going anywere so I'm leaving this! Thanks for the chat anyway!

[Ana4Stapp]

^^
Offending Uncertain wont help you to have your orpinions at least respected by the others members here...and this thread is frankly dead... :rolleyes:

[The Lithium]

First off, I think the generally-accepted term for 'dislike of homosexuals' is 'homophobia,' although many people, such as Uncertain & myself, don't actually fear them, we just have religious grounds for opposing the act of homosexuality. Racism strictly applies to race.
In any matter, I posted wayyy above (maybe my 1st post? i can't recall which) that I don't hate homosexuals, don't even dislike them. I work or have worked with people, or have friends who are homosexual. I have nothing against them in and of themselves. I merely dislike the particular sin in which they engage. 'Twas said above, Love the sinner, not the sin. And that's honestly how I feel.
Alright then. I guess I've made my point then and you made yours. I totally and fully respect yours, although I don't agree with it or think it's 100% right. But as long as you don't dislike the people who are homosexual, I guess you and I are at least somewhere on the same page, right?

-Peace!

[RMadd]

But as long as you don't dislike the people who are homosexual, I guess you and I are at least somewhere on the same page, right?
Indeed, we are.

[RoffeDH]

^^
Offending Uncertain wont help you to have your orpinions at least respected by the others members here...and this thread is frankly dead... :rolleyes:

I hope I didn't offend him, I just got mad couse he put words in my mouth, I respect his opinion, at least I belive I respect it... And yeah, it's dead :P

[Ana4Stapp]

[I hope I didn't offend him, I just got mad couse he put words in my mouth, I respect his opinion, at least I belive I respect it...

;)

And yeah, it's dead :P

* almost*... :rolleyes:

[RoffeDH]

Yeah, the thread is as dead as Latin! ;)