Do you let Religion dictate political views?

[Lunar Shadow]

I think you should be able to differ between religion and politics. Contrary to popular belief this is not a Christian nation, in fact most of the founding fathers where deists (Washington, Jefferson, and many more) the thing I keep in mind is that this is a country founded with freedom and liberty in mind Remember just because it is legal doesn't mean you have to do (I.E. Abortion, smoking, drinking, premarital sex.) yes these may be moral issues for you but when it comes to politics these should be non issues. These types of things are our freedoms you don't have to use them just don't condemn others for exercising their FREEDOMS! *steps off of soap box*

[JulieCitySlicker]

Still on the religion kick,I see ;)

[Lunar Shadow]

not exactly, I have been a little preoccupied as of late with my new baby (born 7-7) I am not on a religion kick one could say. do you say a preacher is on a religion kick? It is just an important thing to me (the lack of religion more like) I find is nessisary to battle it at every turn I can yes. but it is not a kick.
:)

[uncertaindrumer]

Isn't the point of a Democracy to give people a choice? If people choose to base their decisions on Religious views, it's their right to.

It is just an important thing to me (the lack of religion more like) I find is nessisary to battle it at every turn I can yes.

I fidn this laughable. You don't believe anything yet you want to covince everyone else you are right. Well if you don't believe in anything, why do you GIVE a friggin crap?

[uncertaindrumer]

These types of things are our freedoms you don't have to use them just don't condemn others for exercising their FREEDOMS!

If someone believes abortion is wrong it is because they believe it is murder. Gonna tell me THAT's a freedom? As for drinking, people can do it all they want, as long as they don't get in a car and drive and kill people. Same goes for smoking. If you want to give YOURSELF lung cancer, go ahead. Keep it out of public places where everyone else is forced to inhale a disgusting smoke.

[JulieCitySlicker]

not exactly, I have been a little preoccupied as of late with my new baby (born 7-7) I am not on a religion kick one could say. do you say a preacher is on a religion kick? It is just an important thing to me (the lack of religion more like) I find is nessisary to battle it at every turn I can yes. but it is not a kick.
:)
Um...right!

[Lunar Shadow]

Well if you don't believe in anything, why do you GIVE a friggin crap?

Because of people like you Uncertain people like you who try to pass laws forcing your RELIGIOUS beliefs on me. Do I restrict your rights? No I don't I don't go and help get laws past that you MUST follow that infinge on your religious beliefs. to keep with your beliefs all you have to do is not do the things that you havea right to like have an abortion (yes it is a tired example but it gets the point across) I am not forcing you to have an abortion by making it legal you now have a choice weather to get one or not. do you get what I am saying here? basically it comes down to keep your religion off my freedom and liberty and I won't force you to use your freedom.

[Ana4Stapp]

Because of people like you Uncertain people like you who try to pass laws forcing your RELIGIOUS beliefs on me.
Do I restrict your rights? No I don't I don't go and help get laws past that you MUST follow that infinge on your religious beliefs. to keep with your beliefs all you have to do is not do the things that you havea right to like have an abortion (yes it is a tired example but it gets the point across) I am not forcing you to have an abortion by making it legal you now have a choice weather to get one or not. do you get what I am saying here? basically it comes down to keep your religion off my freedom and liberty and I won't force you to use your freedom.


Ahh....now the thread starts to making some sense... :rolleyes:


By the way,this whole thread seems a reprise !!!!!!!!!! :eek: (:sorry!)

[Lunar Shadow]

... Same goes for smoking. If you want to give YOURSELF lung cancer, go ahead. Keep it out of public places where everyone else is forced to inhale a disgusting smoke.

You still will ignore evidence I have put forth about 2nd hand smoke... typical the problem is you have been brainwashed all your life in to believing anything anyone who in your circle tells you with out actually researching it for yourself. Next thing you know you are going to tell me you believe in a literal 6 day creation and that Intelligent Design should be taught in schools. I am getting off track here.

My point is I offer up proof (in this case on 2nd hand smoke) backed by multiple scientific studies and you slap them down because they do not fit in to your would view. This, my friend is what I mean when I say "You only see what you want to believe you ignore any reason and any thing put in opposition to you" you have done this repeatedly since about April when I stated frequenting again.

I really don’t know why I bother with you…

I challenge you to come to my arena Uncertain over at www.Ex-Christian.net talk to the people there see how long you last I know that I am a laymen comparison to the people over there You wouldn’t last a week come on Dario is over there and he is in a very lively discussion right now maybe you should give it a spin they just love apologists there.



see you in the fold

--Jester

[uncertaindrumer]

Because of people like you Uncertain people like you who try to pass laws forcing your RELIGIOUS beliefs on me. Do I restrict your rights? No I don't I don't go and help get laws past that you MUST follow that infinge on your religious beliefs. to keep with your beliefs all you have to do is not do the things that you havea right to like have an abortion (yes it is a tired example but it gets the point across) I am not forcing you to have an abortion by making it legal you now have a choice weather to get one or not. do you get what I am saying here? basically it comes down to keep your religion off my freedom and liberty and I won't force you to use your freedom.


:rolleyes: I don't recall saying premarital sex should be banned or saying that homosexual couples shouldn't be allowed to marry. That is their business. Abortion is quite different. In that case, it is the murder of an innocent being who HAS no vote, and thus they must be fought for by those who do.

Now if you take your beliefs in politics out to their ends, we shouldn't illegalize murder, drugs, polygamy or anything like that. You wanna make those legal? If you do, I'd actually respect your position more. Right now you are jsut being contradictory.

[uncertaindrumer]

You still will ignore evidence I have put forth about 2nd hand smoke...

I don't recall any evidence about second hand smoke. And in fact, I never even brought up the fact that it harms others. I just said they should keep the disgusting stuff out of public places. Once again, taking your beliefs to their ends, we should be able to relieve ourselves in public, go naked, and heck, have intercourse in the streets. Yet we can't. Funny how you don't decry all of THAT as me imposing my religious beliefs on you.

You've lost your touch. Your arguments used to make sense. Now they don't.

typical the problem is you have been brainwashed all your life in to believing anything anyone who in your circle tells you with out actually researching it for yourself.

Researching WHAT? I don't recall making any statements about anything that would require research.

Next thing you know you are going to tell me you believe in a literal 6 day creation

I don't, but I know many smart people who do. It isn't an entirely ridiculous theory. Just *mostly* ridiculous ;)

and that Intelligent Design should be taught in schools.


No, although I definitely don't think that spontaneous generation should be taught either.

I am getting off track here.

I'd say.

My point is I offer up proof (in this case on 2nd hand smoke) backed by multiple scientific studies

Where? What are you talking about? Did I miss something?

and you slap them down because they do not fit in to your would view.

I haven't had anything to slap down!! How can I slap anything down without having it there? You really have lost it, Anarkist. Not only are you contradicting yourself and making up thigns which I didn't say, you are making up evidence which you never put forth!

This, my friend is what I mean when I say "You only see what you want to believe you ignore any reason and any thing put in opposition to you"

Actually, right now I am trying to find this smoking evidence on the thread somewhere and can't find! Is that what you mean when you say I see what I want to see? Wow... maybe the problem has gotten so pervasive I literally can't find it anywhere...

you have done this repeatedly since about April when I stated frequenting again.

:rolleyes: But of course you are perfectly open minded and listen to everything.

I really don’t know why I bother with you…

Neither do I.

I challenge you to come to my arena Uncertain over at www.Ex-Christian.net talk to the people there see how long you last I know that I am a laymen comparison to the people over there You wouldn’t last a week come on Dario is over there and he is in a very lively discussion right now maybe you should give it a spin they just love apologists there.

Why on Earth would I want to do that? The day I see you open up a discussion about how you believe the Bible is fraudulent and God doesn't exist here (http://www.envoymagazine.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6), is the day I come to be overwhelmed by the sheer quantity if not quality of accusations from your ex-Christian buddies who I really have no desire to associate with. Unlike you, I don't charge into forums bashing other's beliefs OR non-beliefs.

[Lunar Shadow]

:rolleyes: I don't recall saying premarital sex should be banned or saying that homosexual couples shouldn't be allowed to marry. That is their business. Abortion is quite different. In that case, it is the murder of an innocent being who HAS no vote, and thus they must be fought for by those who do.

Well if you look at it you didn't have a vote 'til you were 18 and you were subject to the laws of the land anyway so are you saying that we should let EVERYONE regardless of age vote? No matter how you slice it Uncertain your view on arbortion is motivated by religious reasons (your religion says it is wrong) that is something you can not deny.



Now if you take your beliefs in politics out to their ends, we shouldn't illegalize murder, drugs, polygamy or anything like that. You wanna make those legal? If you do, I'd actually respect your position more. Right now you are jsut being contradictory.




Actually I do believe that drugs and polygamy should not be illegal and as for murder well if you look around it is legal in some states under some circumstances (in Texas it is legal to murder as long as you tell the person when and how you are going to kill them. and in D.C. dueling is still legal). I think people have the right to govern themselves. Now don’t get me wrong I have morals just because something is legal doesn’t mean I will do it. If it were completely legal to murder I wouldn’t. I go with the philosophy of treating people as you would want to be treated. You get what you give in that respect. Keep in mind that I do have a political affiliation (Libertarian) I do have my ideals but I am smart enough to know that I have to work with the system to change it 

[Lunar Shadow]

I don't recall any evidence about second hand smoke. And in fact, I never even brought up the fact that it harms others. I just said they should keep the disgusting stuff out of public places. Once again, taking your beliefs to their ends, we should be able to relieve ourselves in public, go naked, and heck, have intercourse in the streets. Yet we can't. Funny how you don't decry all of THAT as me imposing my religious beliefs on you.
I checked the threat I thought it was a discussion you were involved in and it turns out you never posted in it you may have read it and forgotten it.... fair enough

and for the record I am for public nudity as relieving yourself in public there are health concerns about that and I can't think of many people who would want to have intercourse in the street (I know I wouldn't) but agian what ever I am not say that any of thoes things are or are not imposing on your religious beliefs.


I don't, but I know many smart people who do. It isn't an entirely ridiculous theory. Just *mostly* ridiculous ;)

Thats refreshing


No...

thats also refreshing




Actually, right now I am trying to find this smoking evidence on the thread somewhere and can't find! Is that what you mean when you say I see what I want to see? Wow... maybe the problem has gotten so pervasive I literally can't find it anywhere...

http://www.creedfeed.com/community/showthread.php?t=9322&page=2&pp=15
there is your link for the proof about 2nd hand smoke it is in this thread



Why on Earth would I want to do that? The day I see you open up a discussion about how you believe the Bible is fraudulent and God doesn't exist here (http://www.envoymagazine.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6), is the day I come to be overwhelmed by the sheer quantity if not quality of accusations from your ex-Christian buddies who I really have no desire to associate with. Unlike you, I don't charge into forums bashing other's beliefs OR non-beliefs.


Oh believe me I have been a member on many Christian boards the problem is that the second I raise a voice in protest BOOM I get banned I have been on Christianteenforums.com and Christianforums.com as well because the don't want to hear a different point of view so the second you say anything to the effect of "I don't believe that god exists" Boom Banned

Now I am more than happy to joint this board of yours if I am not going to get banned just for being an Atheist otherwise I am not going to waste my time. I can guarantee that you won't get banned for your beliefs you can say what ever you want and the admin will not bat an eye. So do tell me Uncertain will this be a waste of my time or not?

[RMadd]

i, personally, do allow those beliefs to influence my decisions. that is not to say that i support this country becoming a theocracy. i do feel, however, that the morality espoused by my religious views is correct & the best (if i didn't believe that, then what would be the point of holding any convictions). so, because i feel they are correct and proper, i pursue their support and hopeful implementation. and compared to many in my denomination, my beliefs are toned down somewhat. knowing a handful of homosexuals, through work and school, i do not hate them. but, as per god's judgment, homosexuality is a sin. of course, in god's eyes, all sins are equal, so i do not feel that we heteros are superior to the homos in this regard.

[RMadd]

Next thing you know you are going to tell me you believe in a literal 6 day creation and that Intelligent Design should be taught in schools. I am getting off track here.
while i'm still unsure regarding the proposition of a literal or figurative time period (i do believe that our language & translations, when compared to the initial language the OT was produced in, do affect many of these nuances that are now widely debated... because when God created the universe, there was no sense of time until after he had begun creating... that's not to say i don't believe he could possibly have, since he is all-powerful, but these 2 circumstances--language & perspective--do leave it open for interpretation.... not to mention the doubt on the part of some that anything is fathomable and that, instead, a whole bunch of nothing went kaboom)... but i digress.......
my issue is with the opposition to the teaching of intelligent design or creationism in public schools. as with any subject, students are not forced to believe what they are taught. while some of the more objective subjects (such as math) do require a bit more faith in the teacher's abilities, interpretations of other subjective material (politics, history, philosophy, etc, etc, etc) are certainly wide-ranging. i went to a public high school; i was taught evolutionary theory in my freshman bio class. inasmuch as evolution is a theory, and not a proven scientific fact, so too is the creation of the world a theory (belief held by a number of people), and unable to be scientifically proven (i will admit this; but religion, or at least christianity, is a matter of faith, not science). i have no problem with the instruction of evolutionary theory, creation theory, etc, so long as each is presented equally, and the students are made aware that, even if any of the theories is, indeed, true, it is not up to the instructor to decide this for the students. in a history class i took last fall (the history of the world, dating from prehistory thru 1400), our professor used a text that included the creation myths of a number of world religions, past and present. one of our tasks, after reading these myths, was to list the similarities and differences between all. and while no two were identical, they certainly bore a number of similarities.
a side point to this debate is the issue of acceptance. this seems to be one idea which liberals are always pleading neo-cons for: acceptance of homosexuality, acceptance of racial equality, etc. however, it's unusual that, when an issue such as acceptance or acknowledgement of certain religious views are pressed upon irreligious liberals (and some conservatives as well, i suppose), they are flatly refuted, such as with this issue over the instruction of creationism or intelligent design in a public school setting.

[Lunar Shadow]

i, personally, do allow those beliefs to influence my decisions. that is not to say that i support this country becoming a theocracy. i do feel, however, that the morality espoused by my religious views is correct & the best (if i didn't believe that, then what would be the point of holding any convictions).

I do have question RMadd by this statment are you implying that it is impossible to have moraltiy with out a system of belief? what about ethics?

just curious

-JESTER

[uncertaindrumer]

Well if you look at it you didn't have a vote 'til you were 18 and you were subject to the laws of the land anyway so are you saying that we should let EVERYONE regardless of age vote? No matter how you slice it Uncertain your view on arbortion is motivated by religious reasons (your religion says it is wrong) that is something you can not deny.

My religion says murder is wrong. If that means I'm letting my religious beliefs influence my decision making, I am proud of it.







Actually I do believe that drugs and polygamy should not be illegal and as for murder well if you look around it is legal in some states under some circumstances (in Texas it is legal to murder as long as you tell the person when and how you are going to kill them. and in D.C. dueling is still legal). I think people have the right to govern themselves. Now don’t get me wrong I have morals just because something is legal doesn’t mean I will do it. If it were completely legal to murder I wouldn’t. I go with the philosophy of treating people as you would want to be treated. You get what you give in that respect. Keep in mind that I do have a political affiliation (Libertarian) I do have my ideals but I am smart enough to know that I have to work with the system to change it 

So you want total and complete anarchy? You want drugs legal? What is wrong with you.

[uncertaindrumer]

and for the record I am for public nudity as relieving yourself in public there are health concerns about that and I can't think of many people who would want to have intercourse in the street (I know I wouldn't) but agian what ever I am not say that any of thoes things are or are not imposing on your religious beliefs.

You are for public nudity and sex in public. Why am I even arguing with you?





Oh believe me I have been a member on many Christian boards the problem is that the second I raise a voice in protest BOOM I get banned I have been on Christianteenforums.com and Christianforums.com as well because the don't want to hear a different point of view so the second you say anything to the effect of "I don't believe that god exists" Boom Banned

Now I am more than happy to joint this board of yours if I am not going to get banned just for being an Atheist otherwise I am not going to waste my time. I can guarantee that you won't get banned for your beliefs you can say what ever you want and the admin will not bat an eye. So do tell me Uncertain will this be a waste of my time or not?

As logn as you voice your opinions in a respectful manner, which doesn't always happen, you will never be banned for your beliefs.

[creedsister]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa If Folks Wants To Get Jiggy Wit On The Streets Hey FREE LOVE What Can I I voted No I never Vote Anyways If their be anything like banging your head through a break wall Voting is hehe But I cheer On the morons who think their vote is going to change the world HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA its just all for the Love that ya had your 2 cents in it :D

[uncertaindrumer]

Your post, as usual, is illegible, unreadable, sounds like it is in a foreign language and no one can understand what you are saying. This is really discourteous to not take the time to make your posts readable for other people.

[Lunar Shadow]

So you want total and complete anarchy? You want drugs legal? What is wrong with you.


Wow it took you that long to say that when my name is Anarkist (yest I know I spelled it wrong it was done on perpose)

Yes legalized drugs the stupid ones will weed themselves out there is nothign wrong with using drugs as long as it is done in a resposible manner (I myself do not do drugs I have no interest in them).

[Lunar Shadow]

Your post, as usual, is illegible, unreadable, sounds like it is in a foreign language and no one can understand what you are saying. This is really discourteous to not take the time to make your posts readable for other people.



we have been telling her this for ever Uncertain I have just accepted that it will never change I attempt to read them but just move on :)

[Lunar Shadow]

You are for public nudity and sex in public. Why am I even arguing with you?



Now if you take your beliefs in politics out to their ends, we shouldn't illegalize murder, drugs, polygamy or anything like that. You wanna make those legal? If you do, I'd actually respect your position more. Right now you are jsut being contradictory.


I have mede my position known and you have contradicted yourself. I tell you what I think on the topics of drugs and polgamy and such and you turn coat Typical bait and switch tactic of an apologist.

[uncertaindrumer]

I have mede my position known and you have contradicted yourself. I tell you what I think on the topics of drugs and polgamy and such and you turn coat Typical bait and switch tactic of an apologist.

Yes, your position makes SENSE, logically, now. But if you really believe all that, then I really have no interest in arguing with you. But I have one more question to see if maybe I can get a more objective debate started:

Who says we deserve freedom? Where is it written that human beings are all supposed to be free to do whatever they want?

[uncertaindrumer]

Wow it took you that long to say that when my name is Anarkist (yest I know I spelled it wrong it was done on perpose)

Yes legalized drugs the stupid ones will weed themselves out there is nothign wrong with using drugs as long as it is done in a resposible manner (I myself do not do drugs I have no interest in them).
You just said drugs aren't a problem if used responsibly. Drugs aren't a problem if used responsibly? USING them is irresponsible! They aren't illegal for no reason at all! They are illegal becasue they are HARMFUL, and if you give me a stupid web page that "proves" it otherwise it will do nothing but prove the rest of your sources unreliable, because as you probably know, anyone can make anything look proven on the internet, and it is a freakign fact that illegal drugs such as heroine and cocaine are harmful. Nor granted this has LITTLE to do with the debate but COME ON man.

[RMadd]

I do have question RMadd by this statment are you implying that it is impossible to have moraltiy with out a system of belief? what about ethics?

just curious

-JESTER
i'm not quite sure how you got that out of my statement but no, i don't think it's impossible. certainly not for ethics, anyway. there are many unethical christians, just as there are, i'm sure, many ethical atheists. what constitutes morality, however, is far more subjective. i'm sure that you have a set of beliefs from which your morality is derived; i, therefore, cannot write off your morality as being illegitimate. never having been an atheist or irreligious, nor having studied it deeply, i am not particularly knowledgeable regarding the basis for an irreligious person's moral compass. just because i believe my morality is superior to yours does not make your morality entirely invalid, if that's what you're accusing me of doing. just because the Cardinals are superior to the Cubs (and just about every other team in the MLB) doesn't mean that the Cubs (or anyone else) effictively cease to exist as a pro baseball team.

[RMadd]

Wow it took you that long to say that when my name is Anarkist (yest I know I spelled it wrong it was done on perpose.
yeahhh... he's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer

[RMadd]

i guess i should qualify the extent to which i allow my religious beliefs to influence my voting behavior. for me, two of the main moral issues facing this country today are gay marriage & abortion. it is my belief that both are wrong & sinful. ceteris parbus, i would vote for the candidate supporting these views. however, in the past 3 or 4 months, i have realized that president bush, while in line with my views on these two issues, has failed us on a number of other counts. that is not to say that i wish to take back my vote last november and place it in favor of sen. kerry. i'm kind of a neo-con-moderate, i guess you could say. if taxes need to be raised, hike 'em up on the rich a bit. if the federal gov't needs to expand its power to get something of grave importance done, so be it. but, as i said above, i still support these particular christian views, so yeah.

[Ana4Stapp]

Yes legalized drugs the stupid ones will weed themselves out there is nothign wrong with using drugs as long as it is done in a resposible manner (I myself do not do drugs I have no interest in them).



Using drugs in a responsible manner????? Does it exists? :eek:


Also, Im always defending the freedom in EVERY level: freedom of speech, of religion,sexual, all kinds of individual freedom. ..but saying theres nothing wrong with using drugs is at least irresponsible and inadmissible.

After that, this thread clearly has no sense... :rolleyes:

[Lunar Shadow]

Who says we deserve freedom? Where is it written that human beings are all supposed to be free to do whatever they want?


What county do you live in??? cuz if you live in Canada then this question makes sense otherwise you just felt like filling a little more space in your post.

[Lunar Shadow]

You just said drugs aren't a problem if used responsibly. Drugs aren't a problem if used responsibly? USING them is irresponsible! They aren't illegal for no reason at all! They are illegal becasue they are HARMFUL, and if you give me a stupid web page that "proves" it otherwise it will do nothing but prove the rest of your sources unreliable, because as you probably know, anyone can make anything look proven on the internet, and it is a freakign fact that illegal drugs such as heroine and cocaine are harmful. Nor granted this has LITTLE to do with the debate but COME ON man.


You see it is not my business if people use them responsbly, I'd say thats what I would prefer. other than that its like I said if people are stupid enough to use thme then they deserve to die (hence the stupid people will weed themselves out). my position on this is perfectly rashtional and falls perfectly within my party lines.

[Lunar Shadow]

just because i believe my morality is superior to yours does not make your morality entirely invalid, if that's what you're accusing me of doing.


That is a very Vain and subjective statment. I don't sit here and say that my morals are better than yours. I say this for 2 reasons

1. I am not you
2. It would be stupid of me to just dismiss your moral base and background


Like I have said a million times my moral base has nothing to do with my political views.

[Lunar Shadow]

i guess i should qualify the extent to which i allow my religious beliefs to influence my voting behavior. for me, two of the main moral issues facing this country today are gay marriage & abortion. it is my belief that both are wrong & sinful.


but accoording to your book (the bible) All sin is equal in the eyes of God. that mean your lie that is a bad as being and acting Gay or havign anabortion or killing some one .... you get my point?


it is not your place to condemn sin (as you see it) when you yourself sin on a daily basis

[Ana4Stapp]

People who uses drugs-are not only stupid ones to use them and then deserve die - "so let them use, this is their problem"- they are also contributing to others people death- because the use of illegal drugs definitely means the increase of the violence.People that never thought about consuming drugs are killed because them eveyday.
So no one can use drugs in a responsible way.

[Ana4Stapp]

double post- sorry

[uncertaindrumer]

What county do you live in??? cuz if you live in Canada then this question makes sense otherwise you just felt like filling a little more space in your post.

It doesn't matter what country I live in. I am curious as to what your answer would be.

[uncertaindrumer]

but accoording to your book (the bible) All sin is equal in the eyes of God.

As usual you are completely wrong on matters of the Bible. NOT all sin is equal in the eyes of God. Although granted I'm nto sure what this has to do with the thread.

that mean your lie that is a bad as being and acting Gay or havign anabortion or killing some one .... you get my point?

Oh that's the point. Well sorry. No dice. Lying about something is not nearly as bad as killing someone.


it is not your place to condemn sin (as you see it) when you yourself sin on a daily basis

Sure it is. It isn't our palce to condemn PEOPLE who sin, but it sure as heck is our place to condemn sin

[uncertaindrumer]

yeahhh... he's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer

:rolleyes: Thanks. I can handle high level calculus but im not a sharp knife in the drawer, eh?

If someone's screename was "Murderer" I still would not then think "Oh, he wants everyone to murder everyone!".

[Lunar Shadow]

Why on Earth would I want to do that? The day I see you open up a discussion about how you believe the Bible is fraudulent and God doesn't exist here (http://www.envoymagazine.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6), is the day I come to be overwhelmed by the sheer quantity if not quality of accusations from your ex-Christian buddies who I really have no desire to associate with. Unlike you, I don't charge into forums bashing other's beliefs OR non-beliefs.

2 things Uncertain

1 You are chosing ignorace of the otherside in not wanting to engage with people who think different than you. You are just hiding in your little corner of the web safe from anything that might call in to question your fragile little world (not that I blame you).

2 I just joined your little board over there at Envoymag

[uncertaindrumer]

2 things Uncertain

1 You are chosing ignorace of the otherside in not wanting to engage with people who think different than you. You are just hiding in your little corner of the web safe from anything that might call in to question your fragile little world (not that I blame you).

2 I just joined your little board over there at Envoymag

Not wanting to engage peopel who think differently than me? What are you, a mindreader? I am first of all, busy, and second of all, I go to plenty of message boards--including THIS one--where people think "differently" than me. In fact the envoy magazine board is the only Catholic board I visit, so shut up on matters in which you are entirely ignorant.

You think I don't dialogue with atheists? I do. In fact I have had lots of discussion and debates with them at other forums. Almsot without fail their argumetns are better than your and often they are a lot less obnoxious as well.

So, I am goign to take your advice and leave this board where people "agree" with me, because I am sick and tired of you.

[metalanus]

I think you should be able to differ between religion and politics. Contrary to popular belief this is not a Christian nation, in fact most of the founding fathers where deists (Washington, Jefferson, and many more) the thing I keep in mind is that this is a country founded with freedom and liberty in mind Remember just because it is legal doesn't mean you have to do (I.E. Abortion, smoking, drinking, premarital sex.) yes these may be moral issues for you but when it comes to politics these should be non issues. These types of things are our freedoms you don't have to use them just don't condemn others for exercising their FREEDOMS! *steps off of soap box*


America is a Christian Nation. Well used to be. Ragrdless if the founding fathers were christian or not they based alot of thought around biblical principles. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson mentioned it in a letter. However he was writing that Government should not run the churches.

[Lunar Shadow]

America is a Christian Nation. Well used to be. Ragrdless if the founding fathers were christian or not they based alot of thought around biblical principles. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson mentioned it in a letter. However he was writing that Government should not run the churches.


rrrriiiighhhhtttt
here are a few more quotes from Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
:eek: did he just say that? well I guess you are out of luck there metalanus
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

"As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820


A Christian nation indeed

Where is your proof? Can you even half-assly back up your claim??

Just because the majority believes in a god or in the Christian model of god doesn’t mean that they are right. A majority doesn’t mean anything except that they are more of you than them doesn't mean you are right.

[Mulletman]

America was founded on christian values, not as a religious state. I was brought up a strick Catholic (if it feels good, stop) so I let religion guide my political views -- to a certain extent.

I dont believe in abortion, for me a child is a gift not a choice. If the case dealt with rape, incest, or severe endangerment towards the mother then maybe I'd be open to it. But just because the dumb bitch couldnt keep her legs closed is no excuse. Do the crime do the time. If you have an abortion, thats all fun and good for you but I will look down and judge you. But as long as my tax dollars do not go into supporting this, I am happy. I am a hipocrate, I am against abortion but I strongly support the death penalty. Why? Because an unborn child is not capable, mentally and physically, of committing three counts of capital murder.

Drugs, alcohol, and tabacco is all fun and good for you. If you want to destroy your life so be it, just dont destroy mine. You have the right to do whatever you want, until it interferes with someone else. I would support legalizing recreational drugs under the conditions that they would be taxed, stricter penalties for harder drugs, and the penalties for a DUI/DWI would increase in severity. First offenses should result in time at a "federal pounding-in-the-ass prison", no chance of parole.

Premarital sex and birth control. I dont think that everyone should engage in premarital sex but no one should have the right to regulate it. I am a manwhore and love to fuck, if it were not for birth control I'd have 20 kids by now.

I am Catholic and I believe in God and the whole she-bang. If you do not believe in a higher power, so be it, but dont cry like a little girl over someone who does. I will never debate over religion because frankly, arguing abour religion is like arguing about whose imaginary friend is better. Its beyond pointless and no matter how hard one tries nothing will change. I have enough respect to not question your motives or mentality the only thing I ask in return is the same respect. Its fine if you cant comprehend why I believe in God (vice-versa), just keep it to damn yourself. Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.

[JulieCitySlicker]

Mullet, your post was awesome man ;) Your the bomb!

[uncertaindrumer]

Nice post, Mullet, although I can see your Catholic up-bringing has not lasted entirely, lol

[Mulletman]

Yea I know :)

[RMadd]

That is a very Vain and subjective statment. I don't sit here and say that my morals are better than yours. I say this for 2 reasons

1. I am not you
2. It would be stupid of me to just dismiss your moral base and background


Like I have said a million times my moral base has nothing to do with my political views.
who's "vain and subjective"? You're allowed to look down upon my views, but I cannot do so upon yours?

[Lunar Shadow]

but you see I am not looking down on anyone here I voiced an opinion weather you agree or not is your business. but when you make laws so that I (or people like me) have freedoms taken away based on your religious beliefs or morals that is when it has gon too far. I have said this time and time agian.... If you don't like the rights afforded to you THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM. it is plain and simple how can you people not grasp that? Legislating religion and morals is wrong, people should be free to make their own choices regarding it.

[Lunar Shadow]

You think I don't dialogue with atheists? I do. In fact I have had lots of discussion and debates with them at other forums.
they way you "defend your faith" I would say you lose a lot of your arguments. I will be the first to say that I am not the Athiest that has all these resources at the table but I do have afew up my sleave. but I am also not the worlds greatest debater but I have see many exchanges on many boards and you are probably the worst apologist I have ever see I mean you make Josh McDowell look good as an apologist.


So, I am goign to take your advice and leave this board where people "agree" with me, because I am sick and tired of you.


Leaving huh? thats why you're still posting right? and hey I joined your catholic board I don't see you anywhere on my Ex-Christian board but then agian I am not surprised you have given me no reason to give you any trust or hold you as a person of integraty.

[Ana4Stapp]

Leaving huh? thats why you're still posting right? and hey I joined your catholic board I don't see you anywhere on my Ex-Christian board but then agian I am not surprised you have given me no reason to give you any trust or hold you as a person of integraty.

Well, You really understand the leaving forums practice as an emergency exit... :rolleyes:

[Lunar Shadow]

Well, You really understand the leaving forums practice as an emergency exit... :rolleyes:


Not really but we can pretend Anna :rolleyes:

I left becasue I needed a break in the time I was gone my wife gave birth to our 2nd child and my over all on-line activity was almost non existant I knew that it would be coming so I bowed out for a bit, its not like I have not taken a leave before remember I was gone while I was in the army and I have left other times as well I have never had to make an "emergency exit" as you put it I have never left a board because of some one else (thats what the ignore feature is for :))

[JulieCitySlicker]

Your threads are getting rather old :rolleyes: From now on I plan to ignore them ;) You left anyways...remember? So we shouldn't even be seeing your threads here. :peoplesey

[RMadd]

but you see I am not looking down on anyone here I voiced an opinion weather you agree or not is your business. but when you make laws so that I (or people like me) have freedoms taken away based on your religious beliefs or morals that is when it has gon too far. I have said this time and time agian.... If you don't like the rights afforded to you THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM. it is plain and simple how can you people not grasp that? Legislating religion and morals is wrong, people should be free to make their own choices regarding it.
i would say that, in calling my opinions/statements "vain," you are, in fact, looking down upon them. your choice to say that legislating religion and morals is wrong is, most definitely, looks down upon the view held by those who believe that religion and/or morals should be legislated. why do you choose to do anything and everything you do? would i be too incorrect in assuming that it's because you believe that you hold those particular actions/beliefs to be superior to any alternatives?

[Lunar Shadow]

would i be too incorrect in assuming that it's because you believe that you hold those particular actions/beliefs to be superior to any alternatives?

Well thats a loaded question (which is a fallacy) are you just trying to squirm your way out of this?

[creedsister]

:) haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa your Right there is no getting it You Won PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!! :) haaaaaaaaaaaaaa now hushhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :bow2:

[uncertaindrumer]

they way you "defend your faith" I would say you lose a lot of your arguments. I will be the first to say that I am not the Athiest that has all these resources at the table but I do have afew up my sleave. but I am also not the worlds greatest debater but I have see many exchanges on many boards and you are probably the worst apologist I have ever see I mean you make Josh McDowell look good as an apologist.

Yes and you make Ozzy Osbourne look moral. I DID stop posting but when you stopped posting... well I saw no reason to continue in my absence.

I have pretty much won every argument I have had with you but you can't see it because you don't even understand how they work. For instance:

have freedoms taken away based on your religious beliefs or morals that is when it has gon too far.

This simple sentence presupposes a ZILLION things. First, that we should have freedom at all. Who said that? Second, that peopel shouldn't have the FREEDOM to take OTHERS freedom away. Who said we can't do that? And also, if we are to presuppose that we have some freedoms, who decides which oens we have and which we don't? You would have us give people the freedom to murder rape and pilfer? Probably not. Yet you have no problem with those "freedoms" being taken away.




and hey I joined your catholic board I don't see you anywhere on my Ex-Christian board but then agian I am not surprised you have given me no reason to give you any trust or hold you as a person of integraty.

:rolleyes: Oh like I have noticed you. How many of these topcis have you opened up? I'd love to see you start a thread saying that that the Bible is really contradictory and unreliable. Maybe if you do that I'll go join your little pet board.

[uncertaindrumer]

Well thats a loaded question (which is a fallacy) are you just trying to squirm your way out of this?

HE squirming? You are most definitely the one squirming.

[Lunar Shadow]

HE squirming? You are most definitely the one squirming.


No I just refuse to play in to a loaded question there is no answer where I can be read right....


its like the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" if you answer yes then that means you did beat your wife. If you answer no that means you are still beating your wife

do I need to draw a diagram?

[uncertaindrumer]

No I just refuse to play in to a loaded question there is no answer where I can be read right....


its like the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" if you answer yes then that means you did beat your wife. If you answer no that means you are still beating your wife

do I need to draw a diagram?

If it is so loaded explain how. Say "I was never beating my wife".

[Lunar Shadow]

If it is so loaded explain how. Say "I was never beating my wife".


You are in fact joking right? becasue what it looks like to me is that you are denying the existance of a logial fallacy.

[uncertaindrumer]

You are in fact joking right? because what it looks like to me is that you are denying the existance of a logial fallacy.

I'm not denying the existance of a logical fallacy. But ANYONE can CLAIM there is a logical fallacy. I could claim that the question "What does 3+4 equal?" is a logical fallacy but I have to show why, certainly.

Explain how it is a fallacy. It seems like a straightforward question, on the surface.

[Lunar Shadow]

I'm not denying the existance of a logical fallacy. But ANYONE can CLAIM there is a logical fallacy. I could claim that the question "What does 3+4 equal?" is a logical fallacy but I have to show why, certainly.

Explain how it is a fallacy. It seems like a straightforward question, on the surface.


oh dear Uncertain,

your name is so fitting it seems that you are uncertain about everything. you are the kind of rabit trails and claim to be contraversial. you are no more than a court jester in the world of minds. you amuse me with you slow witted apaologetics and you pointless questions and your red herrings. It would not surprise me in the least that next you come out and say that gravity is olny a theory and should not be tought in school.


I honestly do not know what to make of you.... if this is all just a big joke to you and you are doing a porody or if you are serious in your arguments. If it is a parody it is funny as all hell, if not; then it is very sad.


consider yourself ignored

[JulieCitySlicker]

You should consider yourself ignored ;)

[Lunar Shadow]

You should consider yourself ignored ;)


you see julie you have already made that abunduntly clear so there is no reason to say it over agian.... you're wasting your breath.

[Ana4Stapp]

Why Julie "cant say it over again" if you are clearly saying the same things all the time, posting threads after threads just to say the exact opinions, starting trheads just to call attention of some guys here and attacking other religions?

[Ana4Stapp]

Look Anarkist, Im not a very religious person, still have a lot of questions, disagree with some religious ideas, by the way had a discussion with another member concerning to the abortion in the other thread here, but i try discuss things defending my opinions, expressing my points of view,but not attacking religions or faith of others ...its not a mature behaviour...

Also, I clearly defend the right of anyone to express opinions, this is a message board, okay, but you are acting in a wrong way: you are right all the time, dont want to listen to the others, create threads to attract guys attention and then start to attacking their faith...

So the next step is leave the forum...until create a "brand new" trhead saying God doenst exists, Bible is wrong, Catholics are ignorants...over and over again... oh boy!!!:rolleyes:

[JulieCitySlicker]

Oh,and by the way Jester,you have successfully made it to my ignore list ;) Congratulations! I'm real tired of you bashing christians and looking down on us just because you don't believe in God anymore. You think that your opinion is the "ONLY" opinion and just like they say,"opinions are like assholes,sometimes they stink" Well I'm tired of your opinion always having to be the one that comes outy ahead because you blab it so much! I think that your just whoring for attention wether it be good or bad. I hope one day you figure things out! I'm out of here!

[Lunar Shadow]

Also, I clearly defend the right of anyone to express opinions, this is a message board, okay, but you are acting in a wrong way: you are right all the time, dont want to listen to the others, create threads to attract guys attention and then start to attacking their faith...

ok Ana I have a question have I ever really attacked you? looking back on it I can not remember a time that I have and if I have it has been maybe once. I only combat with thoes who attack me. I will say however it has not alwasy been like that I will admit that I have been bitter and hateful when I deconverted. but since I have become Anarkist I would say that I have not attacked anyone who didn't come after me first.


So the next step is leave the forum...until create a "brand new" trhead saying God doenst exists, Bible is wrong, Catholics are ignorants...over and over again... oh boy!!!:rolleyes:

you wanna know the only reason that we are running around in circles here? it is because people here (not nessisaraly you ana) ask for proof and things that back my argument and then when I publish my sources they don't even bother reading them. (nofixdadress comes to mind) where I would spend hours reading and finding counter evidence for any argument they put up and again it was ignored I do not just use one site or one author as a reference but most here seem to. I do admit I have the people I like to use (i.e. Carrier and Price to name a couple) but I broaden my horizons so I don't get stuck in a rut of that persons thought.


check out the link I put on the thread "A freethougth manifesto" and follow the directions of the post maybe you'll see where I am coming from


--Jester

[uncertaindrumer]

oh dear Uncertain,

your name is so fitting it seems that you are uncertain about everything. you are the kind of rabit trails and claim to be contraversial. you are no more than a court jester in the world of minds. you amuse me with you slow witted apaologetics and you pointless questions and your red herrings. It would not surprise me in the least that next you come out and say that gravity is olny a theory and should not be tought in school.


I honestly do not know what to make of you.... if this is all just a big joke to you and you are doing a porody or if you are serious in your arguments. If it is a parody it is funny as all hell, if not; then it is very sad.


consider yourself ignored

:smokin: The usual.

Anakrist/Jester has this weird problem, Julie, its called logic. You see, he likes to attack Christianity and all Faith based religions because he feels threatened. That is the ONLY reason in fact. There is no reason for an atheist to attack someone else's religion except becasue they feel threatened by the fact that we have found something they haven't. Because otherwise, it should make no difference to an atheist. After all, its US wasting our time reading Bibles, worshipping, praying etc.

The logic problem comes in when he attacks Faiths. Instead of actually giving reasons, he gives unprovable and equally non-disprovable statements like how we are all deceived, it is all a big sham, etc. etc.

When called upon to explain why a simple question is a "fallacy", he can't do it! So of course he likes to insult (that is always what someone does when they have nothing left) but he has no answers. I just asked him why he thought the question was a "logical fallacy" and instead of answering (If it is so easy that I am STUPID for not understanding, surely he could explain it to me, right?) he jukes, evades, and runs like he always does.

Sure, he has plenty of atheists on websites backing up his "claims" but anyone can prove anything on the internet. I could come up with a zillion Christian sites "proving" everything I claim but do I bother? No, because he won't listen. And he ACTUALLY THINKS that his oscillating universe idea is a scientifically credible theory. That right there should tell you all you need to know.

Anarkist in the last thing I shall ever say to you unless you change your ways drastically, congratulations. You get the world record for the most red herrings, straw men, fallacies, presuppositions, ad hominem attacks, and evasive non-answers that anyone has ever seen. Ever notice how NO ONE agrees with you on this board, even though your personal beliefs AREN'T all that far from certain ones, like Ana4Stapp? She is not religious, pretty liberal, and would probably agree with you on msot things. And even SHE thinks you aren't arguing well, or by the rules. Oh WAIT, I FORGOT. You don't want rules. You want Earth to become a living embodiment of your own nickname. Everyone doing whatever they want, complete godlessness, lack of morals, and lack of any sort of charity at all.

[Ana4Stapp]

ok Ana I have a question have I ever really attacked you? looking back on it I can not remember a time that I have and if I have it has been maybe once. I only combat with thoes who attack me. I will say however it has not alwasy been like that I will admit that I have been bitter and hateful when I deconverted. but since I have become Anarkist I would say that I have not attacked anyone who didn't come after me first.

See, this is your problem You are attacking people here...you are not discussing, voicing your opinion or defending your ideas, you are just attacking ...and also you started the attacks cuz I remember you posting trheads to attacking faith,church, God...you did it, not the other members.

By the way, Im a member here so I think I CAN go to the Political banter (what I asked Steve to create cause i love politics) and say my opinion, or you put threads just expecting certain people to came here to attack their faith?

you wanna know the only reason that we are running around in circles here? it is because people here (not nessisaraly you ana) ask for proof and things that back my argument and then when I publish my sources they don't even bother reading them. (nofixdadress comes to mind) where I would spend hours reading and finding counter evidence for any argument they put up and again it was ignored I do not just use one site or one author as a reference but most here seem to. I do admit I have the people I like to use (i.e. Carrier and Price to name a couple) but I broaden my horizons so I don't get stuck in a rut of that persons thought.

Again Im saying you have the right to say your opinions and of course disagree but I cant satnd your eternal attacks to the others people religion, you definitely need to show some respect so people will respect you, even you are defending diferent concepts fromthem.Otherwise when you are just bashing people, they wiil respond to you with attacks too, and its so boring guy 'cuz... its definitely an "empty discussion"- seems you are talking all alone...

If you want people reading and respecting your sources you need to stop acting this way...and maybe people (even though dont agree with them) at least consider your ideas.

And even though people here thinks "IM VERY LIBERAL" (OH GOD-Im sick of it!!!),not much religious,etc...etc... I can easily disagree wth your statements, cause seems you are ready to point fingers and only attack people what is completely different from discussing religious ideas...in a mature manner...

sorry Jester/Anarkist ...but this is my honest opinion... ;)

[JulieCitySlicker]

:smokin: The usual.

Anakrist/Jester has this weird problem, Julie, its called logic. You see, he likes to attack Christianity and all Faith based religions because he feels threatened. That is the ONLY reason in fact. There is no reason for an atheist to attack someone else's religion except becasue they feel threatened by the fact that we have found something they haven't. Because otherwise, it should make no difference to an atheist. After all, its US wasting our time reading Bibles, worshipping, praying etc.

The logic problem comes in when he attacks Faiths. Instead of actually giving reasons, he gives unprovable and equally non-disprovable statements like how we are all deceived, it is all a big sham, etc. etc.

When called upon to explain why a simple question is a "fallacy", he can't do it! So of course he likes to insult (that is always what someone does when they have nothing left) but he has no answers. I just asked him why he thought the question was a "logical fallacy" and instead of answering (If it is so easy that I am STUPID for not understanding, surely he could explain it to me, right?) he jukes, evades, and runs like he always does.

Sure, he has plenty of atheists on websites backing up his "claims" but anyone can prove anything on the internet. I could come up with a zillion Christian sites "proving" everything I claim but do I bother? No, because he won't listen. And he ACTUALLY THINKS that his oscillating universe idea is a scientifically credible theory. That right there should tell you all you need to know.

Anarkist in the last thing I shall ever say to you unless you change your ways drastically, congratulations. You get the world record for the most red herrings, straw men, fallacies, presuppositions, ad hominem attacks, and evasive non-answers that anyone has ever seen. Ever notice how NO ONE agrees with you on this board, even though your personal beliefs AREN'T all that far from certain ones, like Ana4Stapp? She is not religious, pretty liberal, and would probably agree with you on msot things. And even SHE thinks you aren't arguing well, or by the rules. Oh WAIT, I FORGOT. You don't want rules. You want Earth to become a living embodiment of your own nickname. Everyone doing whatever they want, complete godlessness, lack of morals, and lack of any sort of charity at all.
You got that right :thumbsup:

[Lunar Shadow]

Anarchist yes. With out moral not true. There is a natural morality in the world. It is embedded within us (if you will).


As far as setting the record # of fallacy I hardly think so I could sit here and point fingers all day long but I won't you have proven that it is a waste of time for me to point out logical fallacy. I will however admit that I am prone to the Ad hom fallacy from time to time. I myself have never thrown out a straw men, I, myself do not operate from a presuppositional mind set (it may read like I do but I don't, I have yet to see anything credible when it comes to god). I do donate to charity I have even made a donation to the hurricane relief effort in the south. I am a very giving caring person who I will admit is stubborn. Do I give a damn if some one agrees with me? No just because "EVERYONE" believes there is a god doesn’t mean there is (that is fallacy(appeal to tradition or appeal to bandwagon mentality).


You say you have found something that I haven't well you are wrong I have been there I have found Jesus and I found him after 20 years to be a fraud. So don't play that well we should feel sorry for the poor Atheist who doesn’t know Jesus card because he was never a true Christian to begin with. I was a Christian I was a hardcore Christian. But as you said I have this nasty little habit it’s called THINKING! I may not be the best in expressing my thoughts in knowledge in type but every thing that anyone has put up here (Uncertain, No_fixd_adress, sincirr, Julie, or anyone else) has been countered if not by me then by some one else sometime before. You say I feel threatened well.... the latest numbers form a Newsweek poll show that about 15% of the US is Atheist or Agnostic which means that I am vastly out numbered here well do you blame me? Christians are trying to legislate their moral code based on their book and people who think the way I do are doomed to because we are not respected. How would you like it if the roles were reversed? And you were the 15% minority??

I don't know what else to say to you people you obviously don't want to think you don't want to listen you much rather sit there in your pew and pray the rosary to an invisible sky being that isn't there, and spend the rest of your life in fear thinking "have I done enough to stay out of purgatory or am I doomed?" thinking about YOURSELF and if you are ok and if YOU have built up your heavenly treasures and so on and so on. Pure selfishness. At least I can come out right and say that I am a pretty selfish person I don't try to hide behind the shroud of some belief in some sky being. There are only 3 things that I hold as important My Family, myself, and the well being of both.

I really, really hope you all wake up and try looking at things objectively for once, instead of being stuck in your prison of subjectivity.

Oh BTW I can show you many, many examples of ancient myth that predate the bible. That says the same things. EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO JESUS the bible is not an original piece of literature it is just the same story told with a different name.

Any questions?

I am always watching.

:flamer:

[Sincirr]

- cos it is blatantly an insult and not necessary but he cant help himself cos thats the way he argues!

Because of people like you who try to pass laws forcing your RELIGIOUS beliefs on me...
Stop insulting people!
I can hardly look past the insults to your actual point of argument.
Insults are purile and as far as I can tell by your posts, you dont NEED to add them to make a decent point, IN FACT, they hurt and weaken your argument so STOP IT!

I put your quote in though, A, cos I agree.

Though it pisses me off that many think that all Christians are fricken stupid and dont have a brain in their heads some of us actually CAN think! Fark! Who would have thought! So here's MINE!

Basically over many centuries there has been an unfortunate opressive hold over the way certain countries have been run that has lead to God as being prortrayed as an opressive force, enforcing laws on people that have a biased religious slant.

It's not freedom.

And I am bold enough to say even, that its not Godly.

Its probably the main reason that so many have turned from God and church because something in them said that they have a right to be free.

God wants people to not only choose His ways but to choose HIM by their own free will, so enforcing laws like no gay marriages for example, on a gay couple who love each other and know no other life, is an obvious opressive and unrealistic restriction. They cannot find God or in my beliefs, Jesus in that - they only find condemnation and rejection.

Seems strange to hear that from a Christian I know but yeh...trust me I could go on! Am happy to PM folks or post here IF you want me to ramble on more hehe.

[Sincirr]

OH!
And I will also add that I DONT necessarily vote for a christian representative just cos I know that they exercise their faith. I have found some of their matters of importance to be really potentially damaging to my nation and their lack of care for the poor and opressed to be disturbing...once again I could go on but I better close this window LOL

[Lunar Shadow]

Stop insulting people!
I can hardly look past the insults to your actual point of argument.
Insults are purile and as far as I can tell by your posts, you dont NEED to add them to make a decent point, IN FACT, they hurt and weaken your argument so STOP IT!

I put your quote in though, A, cos I agree.

Though it pisses me off that many think that all Christians are fricken stupid and dont have a brain in their heads some of us actually CAN think! Fark! Who would have thought! So here's MINE!

Basically over many centuries there has been an unfortunate opressive hold over the way certain countries have been run that has lead to God as being prortrayed as an opressive force, enforcing laws on people that have a biased religious slant.

It's not freedom.

And I am bold enough to say even, that its not Godly.

Its probably the main reason that so many have turned from God and church because something in them said that they have a right to be free.

God wants people to not only choose His ways but to choose HIM by their own free will, so enforcing laws like no gay marriages for example, on a gay couple who love each other and know no other life, is an obvious opressive and unrealistic restriction. They cannot find God or in my beliefs, Jesus in that - they only find condemnation and rejection.

Seems strange to hear that from a Christian I know but yeh...trust me I could go on! Am happy to PM folks or post here IF you want me to ramble on more hehe.



Sincirr,

Thank you for thoes deep words I find most what you have said valid and having a good point, it is refreshing to see some one look on the belief and think rationally I commend you.

Honest Question here. Did my privious post have insult in it? if it did it was purly unintentional. I am trying to avoid the Ad hom attacks (but it is just so easy to slip in to when you are the middle child growing up).

[uncertaindrumer]

God wants people to not only choose His ways but to choose HIM by their own free will, so enforcing laws like no gay marriages for example, on a gay couple who love each other and know no other life, is an obvious opressive and unrealistic restriction. They cannot find God or in my beliefs, Jesus in that - they only find condemnation and rejection.

I tend to agree with you here. But are you also saying that such thinss as murder shouldn't be legislated? As long as wrongdoing only invovles those who are INVOLVED IN THE DECISION making, I wouldn't say the government should care. But the government also has to protect people from those who would do them ill, don't you agree?

[Lunar Shadow]

I tend to agree with you here. But are you also saying that such thinss as murder shouldn't be legislated? As long as wrongdoing only invovles those who are INVOLVED IN THE DECISION making, I wouldn't say the government should care. But the government also has to protect people from those who would do them ill, don't you agree?


I would like to say at this time Uncertain that there is a point when things do have to be legislated (i.e. murder) in any government system if they are to have any hope of maintaining order (mind you this is speaking from a logical prospective no my political prospective). Make sense?

[Lunar Shadow]

America is a Christian Nation. Well used to be. Ragrdless if the founding fathers were christian or not they based alot of thought around biblical principles. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson mentioned it in a letter. However he was writing that Government should not run the churches.

http://darkenmoon.net/sig.gif

[RMadd]

Well thats a loaded question (which is a fallacy) are you just trying to squirm your way out of this?
you want a loaded question? let's start with your initial question in this poll: "Do you let Religion dictate political views?"
-"let"--as if we have no choice in the matter: we either allow x to happen, or we are subsmed
-"dictate"--another word with a negative connotation, for obvious reasons.
why not phrase the question as "Does religion play a role as you shape your political ideology?"
or to take a connotation opposite yours:
"do politics get in the way of your religious views?"

[RMadd]

:smokin: The usual.

Anakrist/Jester has this weird problem, Julie, its called logic. You see, he likes to attack Christianity and all Faith based religions because he feels threatened. That is the ONLY reason in fact. There is no reason for an atheist to attack someone else's religion except becasue they feel threatened by the fact that we have found something they haven't. Because otherwise, it should make no difference to an atheist. After all, its US wasting our time reading Bibles, worshipping, praying etc.

The logic problem comes in when he attacks Faiths. Instead of actually giving reasons, he gives unprovable and equally non-disprovable statements like how we are all deceived, it is all a big sham, etc. etc.

When called upon to explain why a simple question is a "fallacy", he can't do it! So of course he likes to insult (that is always what someone does when they have nothing left) but he has no answers. I just asked him why he thought the question was a "logical fallacy" and instead of answering (If it is so easy that I am STUPID for not understanding, surely he could explain it to me, right?) he jukes, evades, and runs like he always does.

Sure, he has plenty of atheists on websites backing up his "claims" but anyone can prove anything on the internet. I could come up with a zillion Christian sites "proving" everything I claim but do I bother? No, because he won't listen. And he ACTUALLY THINKS that his oscillating universe idea is a scientifically credible theory. That right there should tell you all you need to know.

Anarkist in the last thing I shall ever say to you unless you change your ways drastically, congratulations. You get the world record for the most red herrings, straw men, fallacies, presuppositions, ad hominem attacks, and evasive non-answers that anyone has ever seen. Ever notice how NO ONE agrees with you on this board, even though your personal beliefs AREN'T all that far from certain ones, like Ana4Stapp? She is not religious, pretty liberal, and would probably agree with you on msot things. And even SHE thinks you aren't arguing well, or by the rules. Oh WAIT, I FORGOT. You don't want rules. You want Earth to become a living embodiment of your own nickname. Everyone doing whatever they want, complete godlessness, lack of morals, and lack of any sort of charity at all.
touché

[Lunar Shadow]

you want a loaded question? let's start with your initial question in this poll: "Do you let Religion dictate political views?"
-"let"--as if we have no choice in the matter: we either allow x to happen, or we are subsmed
-"dictate"--another word with a negative connotation, for obvious reasons.
why not phrase the question as "Does religion play a role as you shape your political ideology?"
or to take a connotation opposite yours:
"do politics get in the way of your religious views?"


Ahh but you see Rmadd I gave the choice of Yes No and sometimes which does not make it a loded question and in addition to that I give you a chance to explain why you voted the way you did. So you see it in fact is not a loaded question.

[RMadd]

Ahh but you see Rmadd I gave the choice of Yes No and sometimes which does not make it a loded question and in addition to that I give you a chance to explain why you voted the way you did. So you see it in fact is not a loaded question.
are members here discussing at greater length than yes/no/sometimes, or are they not?

[Lunar Shadow]

are members here discussing at greater length than yes/no/sometimes, or are they not?


some like you have chosen to, others not, that choice is on them