gays in religion

[HeadachyMatt]

so what do you think, is gay as evil as some make it out to be

yah yah i know what it says in the bible, but do you think a gay person who believes in God and is a good person still goes to heaven

i do



side note: i'm not here to argue it or anything like that, everyone has there opinion, no need to argue

[SCOTTSMYMAN]

Some people feel very strongly about this subject. I have nothing against gay people and yes, I feel if they are good people and believe they will go to heaven! Not everyone else will feel that way but I do!

[MrSeeker]

There is no such thing as a "good person", so no. It is only by receiving Jesus Christ and believing in Him. Good works have nothing to do with getting into Heaven.

[Xterminator27]

Originally posted by MrSeeker
<b>There is no such thing as a "good person", so no. It is only by receiving Jesus Christ and believing in Him. Good works have nothing to do with getting into Heaven. </b>

thats not a fact. You are guessing/assuming
The real way is whatever you want it tobe, because heaven is like a peace on earth, and you have to do more than belive jesus. but follow his example to make our and others lives as good as can be. Cuz if we accomplish that, then we have already reached heaven, because mayby thats what heaven is.

[TeriB19]

I believe that all people who live a good, helpful caring life and do good things for others are accepted by God. Gay, straight, black, white, polka dotted, whatever. I don't feel that God discriminates. Therefore I don't either.

[MrSeeker]

"Believe what you will,that is your right,but i choose to win,i choose to fight"

[MrSeeker]

Oh,and that is fact, just because you cant face it,doesnt make it a guess.

[Torn Signs]

Originally posted by MrSeeker
Oh,and that is fact, just because you cant face it,doesnt make it a guess.

I 100% agree.

[MrSeeker]

Right on!

[bgivens33]

Originally posted by MrSeeker
<b>There is no such thing as a "good person", so no. It is only by receiving Jesus Christ and believing in Him. Good works have nothing to do with getting into Heaven. </b>

Actually, you are assuming that. You are interpreting a few bible verses the way you think they should be interpreted. The bottom line is God decides who gets into heaven. And if he thinks you've lead a good life and have done great works, and wants you in heaven, I'm pretty sure you'll be in heaven.

[MrSeeker]

I wouldnt be so sure. The Bible clearly says, No way,but through Jesus Christ.
Why the heck does the Bible have to do with every thing important in life? hmmm... when you get married,what do they read out of? When you are sworn to tell the truth what do they make you put your right hand on. Did you know that in the old days the Bible is what kids used for school? why do you think that is?

[Xterminator27]

Originally posted by MrSeeker
I wouldnt be so sure. The Bible clearly says, No way,but through Jesus Christ. &nbsp;
Why the heck does the Bible have to do with every thing important in life? hmmm... when you get married,what do they read out of? When you are sworn to tell the truth what do they make you put your right hand on. Did you know that in the old days the Bible is what kids used for school? why do you think that is?

the bible was written by 50 old men who had over 39 different books written 1900 years ago, 100 years after jesus died.
The bible is really over 100 books long but they took out most of it cuz it would be to boring.
Its not a rulebook based off true facts, it is a hypothetical stroy that has thousands of deep hidden meanings told by hundreds of storys,


for ecample i will explani it to the people who do not understand

"No way but through jesus"
Meaning jesus is teh good and "right" Things off all stuff. The only way you can be a happier person and make those areound you happier (go to heaven) is through jesus or throught the good will and goodness of people.

if you look DEEPLY not just at the surface, not just belive and think whatever is blindly given to you, but LOOK into teh actual book and lessons, you will see that it is like most creed songs, deep meanings of how you and I can live a true more heppier life for everyone. For that is the entire purpose of religion, and of all religions, to make our world a better place and to make everone as happie and caring, and good as we can be.
All religions do that, and Christianity isnt the "RIGHT" religion that if you dont belive it you wont burn in hell for being taught a different way of being good.
Hell is what our lives and world could be if we are all crule and uncaring to each other, we would be depressed, hurt, and unhappie. Heaven is the good and all the happines our world can accomplis hif we are nice , kind and giving to all.
"to eneter heaven is to enter a world of peace, happiness and joy tha tuou must make with otehrs and yourself.

thats my thoughts on it
of course you can belibe wha tu want

[MrSeeker]

Christainity isnt a religion my friend...

[Xterminator27]

Originally posted by MrSeeker
Christainity isnt a religion my friend...

Catholic
cristianity
whateber
i eman catholic

[Torn Signs]

I understand, this is just one lost soul yet Mr. Seeker. They do not seem to understand until something drastic happens,...no arguing please :nono: :argue: Just my opinion, sorry to babble.

Originally posted by Xterminator27
Catholic
cristianity &nbsp;
whateber
i eman catholic

[MrSeeker]

:confused:
Kevin,has Torn confused you? why yes...yes she has...
anywayz, you mind if i add you to my AIM buddy list Torn?

[Torn Signs]

Sure, I don't mind go ahead and do that. I'll do the same here if you let me. Peace out. ;)

Originally posted by MrSeeker
:confused: &nbsp;
Kevin,has Torn confused you? why yes...yes she has...
anywayz, you mind if i add you to my AIM buddy list Torn?

[MrSeeker]

Cool, my AIM name is MrSeeker04 just incase you didnt know ;)
I dont know if yours is correct so,just IM me if ya see me on.

[RMadd]

Interesting question, never really thought about it before.... It is my personal (and denomination's) belief that homosexuality is wrong. So homosexuality could be viewed as a sin. My denomination, Lutherans (MO Synod) believe that, to be saved, you only need to be baptized in the name of Christ and to believe, wholeheartedly, in the triune God and that Christ is your savior. So, if you think about it, everyone sins, but people make it to heaven anyways. So it's quite possible they do.

[HeadachyMatt]

mr. seeker,

if a gay person goes to church, believes in jesus, ext

then does he go to heaven, hmmmmmm

very true the fact we all sin, so its unfair for us to say a gay person will go to hell cause he sins, cause we all do

not that i'm saying u said that

[MrSeeker]

Sin is not allowed into Heaven,so if being gay is sinning then i would say no, same thing with any other sin. It has nothing to do with being gay. I dont have anything against them, i dont know why someone would be gay,but whatever. Also,being gay is not somthing that is supposed to happen, God made it so a woman and man would be together, proof being that a certain male part fits perfectly into a certain female part. God didnt make it so that two males or two females could reproduce,did he. ; )
(sorry if that offended anybody)

[HeadachyMatt]

your opinion, like i said, i'm not here to argue

you have your opinion, i have mine

but take this into thouhgt, we ALL sin, if sin isnt allowed into heaven, we will all burn

think about a few sexual sins that we all commit, gays arent alone


self-pleasing

oral sex (giving or recieving)

sex before marraige

sex with no intention of having a kid

.....these sins are held as with gay sex, we all commit those sins at one point, thats why Jesus dies, forgiveness

its for this reason, sense no one is perfect, that i believe a good person who believes in God, gets into heaven

[MrSeeker]

if your married and have sex that is ok, God made it so when you get married that you and your spouse would become one,whether you intend to have kids or not.
FYI: i have never commited any of those sins which you have typed. I plan to wait until i am married. Like i said before sin is not allowed into Heaven. We must repent of our sins, and go and sin no more. Period

[HeadachyMatt]

lol, i find it hard to believe you've never pleased yourself

and i bet you have oral sex many times durring your marraige

but whatever, more power to you and what u believe

[MrSeeker]

I did at one time,but i stopped because i felt as if i were kinda saying my gf isnt worth waiting for,so i quit. So i repented and sinned no more, like people are supposed to do.

[Xterminator27]

<!--QuoteBegin-Torn Signs+10-14-2003 04:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Torn Signs @ 10-14-2003 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I understand, this is just one lost soul yet Mr. Seeker. They do not seem to understand until something drastic happens,...no arguing please :nono: :argue: Just my opinion, sorry to babble.

Originally posted by Xterminator27
Catholic
cristianity  
whateber
i eman catholic [/b][/quote]
yhea your right
Cristianity is the way of life
all the millions who belive in other religions will all burn in hell because the ywere never taught that jesus existed and thats all that matters. The bible and catholism MUST be right and everyone else in the entire planet and universe are wrong becuase we were taught that it was right so it MUST be right, i mean i wouldnt doupt it a bit, those jewish bastards who belive differently and the germans can all die because their thoughts are different than ours. Catholism is and HAS to be the right way and its TRUE, just because you cant face it dosnt mean its not true, its says in a 1900 year old book written by many people to promote peace, so it CANT be wrong. Im catholic and you are so everyon else dont matter, they are just misguided and WE are the truth-seeing ones. They know nothing. When we all die, their religions are usless and they are all fake or not true because catholism MUST be right because I learned it as a child.
the blind bastards will never see the truth even though more than 4/5 people think differenty, they will all go to hell because i say so.
I AGREE 100%

PS im just giving you a comment in a different prespective of somene else, i am catholic and i belive in god in some extent, but you must look at ALL sides of the picture to know the meaning,

"The ones who only see with one eye are the only truly blind people"

I like discussing this stuff and i make/ think 90% of everything i say here. Look at some of my threads a few months ago, i say how The worold is turning from God and at that point i belived that the Catholic way was the only way. But then i got into highschool and i opened my sight on the different sides of the big picture and learned in that time, more about the truth and meaning of religion than i did before.
Remember This is a world of opinion and personal thought, im sorry but the only lost people here are the ones who only look at one side and toss aiside the others. Shure you were raised one way, but it is always god to branch out and see what elese is in the world.
like i say on all religion posts
THIS IS MY OPINION and im am not trying to force it on anyone else, im just giving others ideas/ thoughts about the world and religion and such

[RMadd]

I agree w/ both what Mr Seeker and Matt are saying.... on one hand, we all die as sinners, and it depends on our beliefs (and other things, depending on whatever denomination/religion you are) that determines whether we enter into heaven or the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." I have never seen in the Bible that pure, perfect heterosexuality is such a determinant for salvation; all sins are equal in God's eyes, so would it be fair to say if you were a believer who followed your religion's beliefs almost perfectly, and you stole a candy bar from a store then got run over by a car crossing the street (dying immediately, unable to confess your sin), that you would be not permitted to enter heaven. I'm sure you'd agree this seems quite absurd; however, if, indeed, all sins are equal, than shouldn't believing gays be allowed into heaven? I, however, am certainly not advocating homosexuality; I believe that God creating, as MrSeeker points out, the perfectly interlocking parts was no accident. Ask yourself this: how would a population in which homosexuality "ruled" remain in tact? Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, my friends.

[MrSeeker]

Yup, thats right BearFan :D
( :huh: whats up with the new crapy faces?)

[Torn Signs]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xterminator27+10-17-2003 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xterminator27 @ 10-17-2003 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Originally posted by Xterminator27
Catholic
cristianity  
whateber
i eman catholic
yhea your right
Cristianity is the way of life
all the millions who belive in other religions will all burn in hell because the ywere never taught that jesus existed and thats all that matters. The bible and catholism MUST be right and everyone else in the entire planet and universe are wrong becuase we were taught that it was right so it MUST be right, i mean i wouldnt doupt it a bit, those jewish bastards who belive differently and the germans can all die because their thoughts are different than ours. Catholism is and HAS to be the right way and its TRUE, just because you cant face it dosnt mean its not true, its says in a 1900 year old book written by many people to promote peace, so it CANT be wrong. Im catholic and you are so everyon else dont matter, they are just misguided and WE are the truth-seeing ones. They know nothing. When we all die, their religions are usless and they are all fake or not true because catholism MUST be right because I learned it as a child.
the blind bastards will never see the truth even though more than 4/5 people think differenty, they will all go to hell because i say so.
I AGREE 100%

PS im just giving you a comment in a different prespective of somene else, i am catholic and i belive in god in some extent, but you must look at ALL sides of the picture to know the meaning,

"The ones who only see with one eye are the only truly blind people"

I like discussing this stuff and i make/ think 90% of everything i say here. Look at some of my threads a few months ago, i say how The worold is turning from God and at that point i belived that the Catholic way was the only way. But then i got into highschool and i opened my sight on the different sides of the big picture and learned in that time, more about the truth and meaning of religion than i did before.
Remember This is a world of opinion and personal thought, im sorry but the only lost people here are the ones who only look at one side and toss aiside the others. Shure you were raised one way, but it is always god to branch out and see what elese is in the world.
like i say on all religion posts
THIS IS MY OPINION and im am not trying to force it on anyone else, im just giving others ideas/ thoughts about the world and religion and such [/b][/quote]


Never did I say that I oppose others with other religions. I have many friends who have their religions. I do not prod them in any direction. I am just saying that yes, there are some out there who do not understand yet. I was raised to be a Catholic, but I didn't agree with it. I found my own way. And big deal because there are more important people out there that have more important careers and goals and that can help this dump called a world in better ways than I have. In my book, nobody is a bastard, nobody is wrong for not seeing one way or the other. We have all grown up in different aspects, we all find and learn things at different times. I can't help everyone, some must go to Hell, it's destined.The 1900 year old book says to love everyone, which in a way I understand, yet can't do. Some like what they have, others suffer. I do not like this world peace thought either. It is evil. Now that is confusing. Now I wish to not argue, so I will keep it zipped. And good luck with Catholicism, I hope it goes well B)

[HeadachyMatt]

mr. seeker, bearfan, i see what both of you are saying

guess we will have to wait and see if elton john gets into heaven, then we will know the answer, LOL

[RMadd]

Ouch!.... That is, assuming he's saved.

[MrSeeker]

Mostly likely not,since he is gay...

[HeadachyMatt]

ahhh it was a joke

i hope he get there, how could he not, all those awesome songs he does

come on mr seeker, u like him too admit it


come on...elton....i wanna here "your song" live

lol

[MrSeeker]

Actuallly ,i cant stand him,but its cool if you do. Im just more into the heavy side of music,thats all...

[Prs4me]

First off, I'd like to say hi cause I'm new to this board. This seems like a cool board with less junk on it than some of the other creed forums I've seen.
IMHO and beleifs, being gay is no different than stealing a candybar or lying to your parents as you were growing up. Sin is Sin, God makes that clear. Will sinners be allowed into heaven? Yes. Romans 8:20 says that All men have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. So first off you need to believe that your are sinner and give it to God. My pastor once said the pre-requesite to entering heaven is sinning, because if you cant admit that you've sinned then you have a problem. Belieiving that Christ is really who he said he is isnt enough either, the bible also says that even the Devil and his demons believe and tremble. You have to accept what Christ has done for you and walk in Him. Being baptized doesn't get you into heaven nor going to church or doing "good" things. God says that Salvation isnt by works lest any man should boast. You need to believe in the death, burial and ressurection by faith. Kinda like milk, you dont need to understand why brown cows can eat green grass and produce white milk. You just have to accept it. So jus accept what Christ has done. I'm not gay, but I am a sinner, saved by grace, not by the few things I do right. My sins have been payed for by Christ's death on the cross. It's through Him that I have eternal life, not by me.

[HeadachyMatt]

very nice

[souldancer]

<!--QuoteBegin-TeriB19+10-10-2003 12:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TeriB19 @ 10-10-2003 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe that all people who live a good, helpful caring life and do good things for others are accepted by God. Gay, straight, black, white, polka dotted, whatever. I don't feel that God discriminates. Therefore I don't either.[/b][/quote]
What a beautifully divine response. Why, you must live a CREEDFUL life of peace and love, unlike those judgemental types that tout words litterally. ;) (** let's pretend this eye is blinking and it;s little a@@ is shaking while singing "'naughty, naughty, why is it so hard to just give love to all??!")**

[whitebird]

Darn, Souldancer you make me laugh!! This board was hurting without you, you add so much.

[RMadd]

<!--QuoteBegin-MrSeeker+10-13-2003 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MrSeeker @ 10-13-2003 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Christainity isnt a religion my friend... [/b][/quote]
MrSeeker, would you care to expound on how Christianity is not a religion? Catholicism is merely a denomination (sect, division, etc.) of Christianity. Protestantism grew out of Catholicism, and there are many Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.). Christianity IS a religion by virtue of the fact that all Christians (whether denominationally Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, UCoC, or whatever else) believe in Christ as their one true savior and in God (whether he's triune or the godhead, this issue is another denominational issue).

[RMadd]

And what you say, Prs4Me, is very true. I agree.

[SmilinSkullRing]

Gays should go to heaven if they led a good, giving life. Being a caring person and helping your fellow man sure counts for something.

I hated watching parishes support their priest after finding out that he molested children and then of course turn right around and damn gays. There are way too many hypocrites in religion.

[creedsister]

Gays if they truly call upon ...with all there heart and soul mind...the way my master asked of theme to do they have right to the kingdome of god...because by the blood of his cross he made way...for that which was lost...he set an example in the old...testimeant...by destroying a city...didnt work ...wouldnt you say...only by death and through the love of christ and by his blood..could the world be set free of sin i dont care who or what you are the price was paid...is christian socitey and ways of tradition ...has forgot thy first love yes...Take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharises and the leaven of herod......he came not to break the law of moses only the it would be furfilled...Today he will not break his laws mans done for him....it about to be closeing time.....PEACE....jesus is lord and loves us all

[TeriB19]

<!--QuoteBegin-SmilinSkullRing+10-28-2003 04:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SmilinSkullRing @ 10-28-2003 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gays should go to heaven if they led a good, giving life. Being a caring person and helping your fellow man sure counts for something.

I hated watching parishes support their priest after finding out that he molested children and then of course turn right around and damn gays. There are way too many hypocrites in religion. [/b][/quote]
:clap: Very well said, SmilinSkullRing!! :clap: I agree 100%.

[SmilinSkullRing]

Thanks Teri! :bow:
:D

[RMadd]

Ah! Not the child molester issue again! Well, while we're on it, let's hear a few jokes......... just kidding.

[SmilinSkullRing]

Yeah, we may not want to hear about the child molester issue but it brings up quite a valid point.

[orlando]

I LOVE EVERYONE, I DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS, OR THEIR CRIMINAL RECORD FOR THAT MATTER, THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE

[MrSeeker]

We do love...no matter what their race,creed,whatever is...
Well, we're supposed to anyways...

[SmilinSkullRing]

<!--QuoteBegin-MrSeeker+11-07-2003 02:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MrSeeker @ 11-07-2003 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We do love...no matter what their race,creed,whatever is...
Well, we're supposed to anyways...[/b][/quote]
Precisely! So many preach their values and then don't come close to following it. It gets nauseating to watch/hear.

BTW, not talking about you just in case....

[Alter Shredder]

Obviously, we have no say in the final outcome. Personally i don't think they will because of what the bible says. The question becomes, if someone knows they are gay but don't act on it because of their faith, would they go to heaven?

[creedsister]

oh boy ilove to anweser first,,,im like radio shack you got questions..i got anwsers,,yes,,the lord had set an example a long time ago,,to tell this was an bad idea,,ok..they didnt,,listen nor do they till this day,,thats why the word became flesh,,,so he could die for are sins,,he is a god of love,,and to these days the lord promsied he would save those bound for darkness and some would even prophsie,,,god bless

[GeeK_2004]

"Only in America, Sexuality is democracy"

[RMadd]

ah, but what does that mean?

[creedsister]

No secrets ,,from our sins,,and the,,world,,would not,,subside

[souldancer]

Good to see the heart-felt, open posts here. I started to write a rather long, opinionated post as I have strong feelings on judgement and literal bible interpretation, but think the best idea, is to carry on with Creed...

Although the names change
Inside we're all the same
Why can't we tear down these walls?
To show the scars we're covering
There's a peace
There's a peace inside us all

His yoke is easy and His burden is light
He looked me right in the eyes
Direct and concise to remind me
To always do what's right
(for me, that means each person looking inside and knowing what is right for them....)

Hurray for a child
That makes it through
If there's any way
Because the answer lies in you

And, finally....as already beautifully posted here..the greatest challenge..
JUST GIVE LOVE TO ALL!

[creedsister]

yes,,im,,with,,you,,some what,,jesus said to love all not just,,the ones that love,,you,,in return,,what better are you then thay,,if you only,love those,,which,,love,,you,,,now ive been lead to belive,,that god,,does not expect you too,,love those which hate you like you would your own,,,but he wants to try with all your heart and then youve done your best,,your a strifer,,which to my,,lord is better,,than being,,perfect,,,GOD BLESS

[Prs4me]

To put it simply....Hate the Sin, Love the sinner...

[creedsister]

YES<<<<<<<<<<<<<amen and amen...

[creedsister]

AND AMEN

[creedsister]

AWW,,man sorry,,i was;nt here guys,,mayby i was in spirt

[SCOTTSMYMAN]

<!--QuoteBegin-Prs4me+11-12-2003 06:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Prs4me @ 11-12-2003 06:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To put it simply....Hate the Sin, Love the sinner... [/b][/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself! :angel:

[creedsister]

what the heck was i thinking hear

[HeadachyMatt]

wow, its so refreshing to these topic go on without become a heated arguement

i see alot of stuff here that makes perfect sense, regardless of wether or not one agrees with it, u still show love

seeing the positivity that has come from this thread i think of this eagles song i heard

"theres a whole in the world tonight, dont let there be a hole in the world tommorow"

maybe there wont be a hole in the world tommorow, just give love to all :)

[knifer]

Why is it that gays have to try to corrupt something ancient and sacred in order to feel better about themselves?

If they are so "out and proud", why do they give a damn if a group of people believe their liftstyle is immoral? Why can't the rump-rangers and rug-chewers just do what they want to do without messing with what others considered sacred? Start their own freakin' religion, and leave the others alone.

Seems like they ain't so comfortable being who they are, if they have to constantly try to get the world to redefine itself in their terms.

That's the problem with Narcissism - which is exactly what homosexuality is - Narcissism to the extream - unless everyone loves you and thinks you are wonderful, you cannot be secure in yourself.

So my point? Hey Homos! Quit trying to change the definitions of "church" and "clergy" and "marriage" to suit your narcissistic needs. If you are so proud to be what you are, do so without trying to remake the world in your pathetic image.

[Sincirr]

I had a really close friend who I loved dearly. I became a Christian and he started freaking out. he came out the following year.

He wouldnt go near me, saying to people that I would judge him cos Christians say that Gays will go to hell. I loved the guy, he was a good friend, but I had no idea that he was struggling with this.

Believe this or not, the week before he came out, I was in the bathroom and the Holy Spirit said very very clearly, "____is gay". It was so left field as far as I was concerned, I questioned whether it was God.

When I was told, I asked God, OK U gave me prior warning that he came out before anyone had actually told me, now, how am I sposed to react as a Christian to this??? God clearly said, well, U have all these other friends that freely talk to U about their sexuality that are Heterosexual, and U dont seem to worry about that...

Basically what God was saying was that I had a predudice against gays that I needed to deal with, cos his sexual activeness was no different to a Heterosexual's as far as God was concerned...Point was, God was more interested in dealing with my sin that day, than my friends!

God showed me through all of this that He loves gays. Just as much as he loves heterosexuals that don't aknowledge Him. No difference.

I have heard of a man who was gay and gave his life to Christ. He now evangelises to gay's. Most of them just turn their back on him, and understandably so. Of course, he is not a practicing gay now; he is married with kids, but alot of people don't like what he does. Who else is gonna reach out to these people! God loves them. In this case, what he is doing is so needed because of the distorted image of God and grace toward gays that some Christians have verbalised.

U can read about it in Philip Yancey's book, "What's So Amazing About Grace". I dont know if that helps or confuses, but I posted it cos of the profound effect the experience had on me.

I am a huge Kings X fan, and Doug Pinnick was told by some Christians that he was going to hell and all sorts of things. I wrote him an email and told him about what God said to him and he replied. In the past, he has spoken of how much, especially as a christian, agony he went through while struggling with coming out. It broke myheart to think that "youre going to hell" was now in his spirit. I was so glad that I could tell Him what God said.

[creedsister]

You are very understanding of the love God he loves gays as well and no sin is diffrent in his eyes,,the lord said in one of his 10 comandments to keep the sabbaith holy it is the day of rest but today people foreget that comandment,,i work on sundays as well,,but are lord was sufferd and died so these sins could be whashed away,,ya,know how we know what todo is through the power of the holy spirt, my lord did not convect me of working on sundays B/c he knew that i had to but really only desired to work for him all the time,,,its good that you opend your ear and heart to god sincirr,,and did,nt fall in the ways of man and he also dealt with you it seems and showed you your sins,,so he could make it right,,God bless you for sharing that,,

[Wylde-Tremonti]

thats not a fact. You are guessing/assuming
The real way is whatever you want it tobe, because heaven is like a peace on earth, and you have to do more than belive jesus. but follow his example to make our and others lives as good as can be. Cuz if we accomplish that, then we have already reached heaven, because mayby thats what heaven is.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Grace- God's Riches At Christ's Expense

it says right there... not of works... meaning... not by good works that are done... so that no one can say I'm Better than you...

We're all sinners... if a gay person Believes in Jesus... they're saved... it's that simple...

[creedsister]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Grace- God's Riches At Christ's Expense

it says right there... not of works... meaning... not by good works that are done... so that no one can say I'm Better than you...

We're all sinners... if a gay person Believes in Jesus... they're saved... it's that simple... WELL SAID :)

[Xterminator27]

.

[hide]

Sorry to those that disagree but the scriptures are clear in this issue. The bible lists a whole bunch of people who if they continue to commit a whole bunch of sins unrepently they will not got to heaven but to hell simple as that. That includes adulterers, fornicators, homosexuals etc: These are perhaps outdated ideals in our modern society but that is what it saids clearly no way around it!

[Wylde-Tremonti]

i think you have to go by person by person... i've heard of many ppl that are sorry for being homosexual... but can't help but be drawn to the same sex... God knows what's in ppls hearts... let Him judge

[njcreedite]

I usually leave these threads alone...cause I tend to be more liberal than most, but.....

Not that long ago left handed people were persecuted as being of Satan.
Now of course we know that being left handed, right handed or ambidextrous is just a part of brain function...nothing more, nothing less.

Sexual orientation is the same thing. I'm hoping someday science will be able to prove (it's already done this..but I guess it's still too complex for most to understand. :confused: ) in an easily understood way...how this is all just a matter of brain function. Till then, I just hope most people live and let live.

[Wylde-Tremonti]

i dont quite agree w/ that... you can't very well coompare being left-handed to being homosexual... most homosexualaty occurs in ppl that have been sexually abused... again... note that i said MOST... because there are always exceptions... once again... Let the King Of All judge.. it's not up to us.. Love all

[hide]

i think you have to go by person by person... i've heard of many ppl that are sorry for being homosexual... but can't help but be drawn to the same sex... God knows what's in ppls hearts... let Him judge

i don't want to go back to a world where they were persecuted even legislated against but I disagree that is a medical issue, I believe it is a choice. If we are talking faith here then the bible clearly teaches it is something depraved and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of the depravity the men of the town showed in this way! If you want to throw away the bible because you don't agree fine, but don't say its only due to a wrong interpratation because that is clearly wrong.

[Wylde-Tremonti]

i agree that homosexuality is wrong... but i think that the can still be saved... you are not lost just because you're Gay.. jesus still loves all

[njcreedite]

hmmmm well most homosexuals were NOT abused...some were..but there are plenty of heterosexuals who were abused too.

I'll let this matter drop because I know it will just frustrate me to death.
I believe in God, but I also believe in science. Science tells me it's a simple matter of brain function. I believe this. I also truely believe that God doesn't care (man does, God doesn't...just my opinion) what our sexual orientation is. He does care how we treat each other and our planet. I doubt he cares what if any religion we are, after all religions are an invention of man's. I'm sure most of you on this thread will disagree with me on all of the above.
I know I can't change your opinions..just as you won't be able to change mine. It's nice that we live in a place that we can share them...as different as they are.
love to all.

[creedsister]

i agree that homosexuality is wrong... but i think that the can still be saved... you are not lost just because you're Gay.. jesus still loves all My lord came to save that which was LOST~~give love to the saints as well as sinners saved or lost were all sinners in gods eyes its more easy for us to judge others than it is for us to show love and sometimes we focus on sin more than love~~God judges us by our hearts not by Flesh does he does not judge~~ and im not saying that being Gay is right it was a abomanation in the old testimeant~~he gave us example and told us it was wrong but he knew before we did that man kind would fall~~the final price was paid~`and did my lord say that there is no sin to big or to small its all the same through his eyes~~if some of you out there can disearn the old testimeant and new testimeant my words would be clear~~some take the price father paid not strong enough~`at times~~not knowing who he really was and what he died for~~he forgave us all because we really know what we do~~~ALL THOU THE NAMES CHANGE INSIDE WERE ALL THE SAME~~IN HIM IS LIGHT THERE IS NO DARKNESS

[Sincirr]

God knows the heart. Alot of the times we don't. As I said, Doug Pinnick from Kings X went through so much agony before God trying to fight it. I don't know where he is with God at this stage, but when someone is truly trying to stay with God even when they are struggling, they may very well inherit the Kingdom of God, shock horror! We are saved by grace, not works, Eph 2:9.

Drunkenness is a sin that Galatians notes. Do U think that if someone whose trying with God, goes out and gets drunk and dies that night that they go to hell?

Of course I dont think that we should just go about sinning cos we are saved by grace, heck no, and I respect Hide's stand on the practice of sin. I also am so greatful for Romans in the bible for those times where I have felt so imprisoned by my behaviour that I felt there was no way out. Thank God for Jesus, and those that have ministered to me of His grace. Hope I wasnt preachin too much here.

Check Romans out, especially 7:7-25.

[creedsister]

God knows the heart. Alot of the times we don't. As I said, Doug Pinnick from Kings X went through so much agony before God trying to fight it. I don't know where he is with God at this stage, but when someone is truly trying to stay with God even when they are struggling, they may very well inherit the Kingdom of God, shock horror! We are saved by grace, not works, Eph 2:9.

Drunkenness is a sin that Galatians notes. Do U think that if someone whose trying with God, goes out and gets drunk and dies that night that they go to hell?

Of course I dont think that we should just go about sinning cos we are saved by grace, heck no, and I respect Hide's stand on the practice of sin. I also am so greatful for Romans in the bible for those times where I have felt so imprisoned by my behaviour that I felt there was no way out. Thank God for Jesus, and those that have ministered to me of His grace. Hope I wasnt preachin too much here.

Check Romans out, especially 7:7-25. Know i dont think if somebody who was strugling with God ang goes out and gets drunk and dies Goes to hell And the word tell us a drunkard will not enter the kingdom~~but we can not let our sins overcome our spirt it happens to many and they fall short of gods blessings because of their sins if we keep our minds upon our sins and feel unworthy of God chances are we will perish in sin if keep our mind and heart upon the lord he will lead us and guide us{take this for love hides a multiude of sins~~we ore judged by our hearts ~~if a sinner is strugling to whats right and fails he is better than perfect~~A righeteous man may fall and stumble but the hand of god is always with him}}thats in pslams some were~~we know whats right and we know the way but sometimes we fall And he said i will be with you always even to the end of the world

[hide]

i respect everyone's opinions but that is exactly and only what they are! we can discuss this until the day we die but we will never come to the same conclusion. the bible is clear homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord and I can say with 100% certainty that someone who practices, continues to do and does not repent will not go to heaven. It is as simple as that, yes we are saved by grace but also read James. If you don't have works how can we be sure of your faith? Are you like one who sees his reflection and forgets it straight away?

I know this view is not PC yet alone popular but this is simply the way it is. God is a love of love but he is also a holy God whose wrath will certainly come.

[creedsister]

Hide i see a lot that you say is about Gods wrath And thats so true but neverthless i have seen a lot of wrong judging in my life by christan socitey and yes if you dont except christ in your life your sins is not forgiving but i really do get your point but you can reach people by love more than brimstone my friend you love the sinner but hate the sin show a light of love to all because that what he died for im not saying that its ok to sin by know means but if we dont show love to the sinner regardless of there sin they can not know the love of my God and then gods love can shine through us and his spirt can move on others and clean theme up~~Lets Show the light of jesus through love that our job then we have done our part let him be the judge Let me say something my friend Every sinner outhere knows theres a hell and im sure that get told by a lot of folks that is were there going if they dont turn to God he cant move without love some have harden there hearts today And they need the brimstone B/C they have know love in theme i see it everyday Gods children Getting Scorend to death And im really sick of it }}you know what im going to shut up now~~JESUS IS LOVE

[hide]

creedsister please paragraphs!LOL sure God is love and that should not be forgetten but you can't overemphaise his love and say that it doesn't matter what you do in life as long as you believe or a "good person" you will be okay. You are not doing anyone a service by telling people such things!

[creedsister]

creedsister please paragraphs!LOL sure God is love and that should not be forgetten but you can't overemphaise his love and say that it doesn't matter what you do in life as long as you believe or a "good person" you will be okay. You are not doing anyone a service by telling people such things! THANKS FOR THE REMINDER :)

[Sincirr]

OK Hide: If someone has been struggling with Homosexuality, and has been able to turn from it for a long while, and meets someone and gets seducted, then dies that night, will they go to hell?

[hide]

OK Hide: If someone has been struggling with Homosexuality, and has been able to turn from it for a long while, and meets someone and gets seducted, then dies that night, will they go to hell?

I am obviously God so its not up to me to decide, I am not the judge but I believe its Galatains which describes God giving us over to our desires and homosexuality is placed in the same league as murder! If you are indeed born again the scriptures tell us that you can have power over sin. I am not saying that you won't have struggles, man I do ALL the time.

[creedsister]

I am obviously God so its not up to me to decide, I am not the judge but I believe its Galatains which describes God giving us over to our desires and homosexuality is placed in the same league as murder! If you are indeed born again the scriptures tell us that you can have power over sin. I am not saying that you won't have struggles, man I do ALL the time.Well Said :)

[Sincirr]

Cool, cos it sounded like 4 a minute that there was no excuses. I respect you not compromising with the word of God. Many are scared to do that cos of how others will see them.

[creedsister]

Cool, cos it sounded like 4 a minute that there was no excuses. I respect you not compromising with the word of God. Many are scared to do that cos of how others will see them. His Word is not the aurther of confusion :)

[whitebird]

I have never before posted on this thread, quite frankly because I find some of your posts exremely judgemental.

I have people in my own life that are gay. I love them, respect them and wonder how they can live their lives subjected to so much prejudice. I stand up for them, and when people hurt them with their words, they also hurt and judge me.

I will not fight with you, but please know where I stand on this subject.

[Sincirr]

Thanks Whitebird. You see a human being when U see these people. Bless your heart.

2 everyone else:

I dunno, I'm a little confused at the whole sin ranking. Is one sin bigger than another? I dont like the idea of looking at homosexuality OR murder as worse sins than others, cos then we judge harsher the people that do them, when our sin is just as bad in God's eyes, isnt it??? Get the planks out, U know? No offence ok.

I just want people to know Jesus and fall in love with Him. I dont wanna look at what they do! His love for them works out all the rest. One of my friends is such a struggler. Shes on drugs and struggling to get off, she has gone back to them time and time again, and had many relationships with really bad men, 2 of her children were taken off her because of her drug issues, she is trying to get off drugs, but is also struggling with her other 2 children running away from home and abusing her. This leads her to want to escape. Then she hates herself and feels unworthy to even speak to God.

I know that she keeps screwing up, but when I look into her eyes and see the lifetime of grief she is carrying, it just breaks my heart.

She was slipping, but today we talked about the grace of God and her attitude changed. She so wanted to have herself and her family healed. We both agreed that the main thing that brings us to the point of turning form our sin's is being confronted with the love of Jesus.

Satan can make U loathe yourself. God doesnt want that for my friend. He loves her, and no matter what I think, cos I have gotten so mad at her behaviour, He still draws her back to Him. I cant understand that! But she has helped me understand the grace of God more than anyone has. I know she's gonna make it.

What about Hosea? He knew the sinful practices that discusted God, his own WIFE kept doing them! She was a prostitute and God would tell him to go and get her back! Why? Cos He wanted to show the world His GRACE!

Of course, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, cos HE IS THE ALMIGHTY! Don't keep sinnin in total ireverence to God and expect to walk into the Kingdom with a bold, "Hey, but I have a baptism certificate right here!!!!" Check out 1 John 3. Scary stuff 4 us all!

PLEASE, Romans 7: 14-a resounding 25; And for those who are surrounded by these people: 1 Peter 2:12

Thanks for reading this essay...one more thought...

R U a sinner who struggles with God?
or a Believer who struggles with sin? There is a big difference.

Sorry 4 the legnth.

[VoveoVoviVotum]

I haven't read this whole thing; I read the last page of messages. But I can see where it is going.

Now, think about this, please, and be open-minded:

"God is Love. You cannot know God if you do not know Love." I know it says that somewhere. Now consider, while homosexuality may be a human mentality, it's... how someone is, isn't it? It's not anything recent; homosexuality has been practiced since the ancient Greeks. But only now is it recognized as a status of being. So, put yourself in their shoes: if you're a homosexual, and you must know Love to know God, and you cannot know Love unless it is homosexual Love, then what do you do? If God is love, then why would he damn them for that?

The Bible was written by human beings, whether you believe in it or not. If you accept that God exists, but look past all that humans have made of Him, think about it; He created us, the Earth, the Universe that holds it, and He would love his creations like Parents love their children. Comitting a true act of inhumanity against our race is Hellworthy, but loving another person... how can that be the same?

I can see where some of you might think of the homosexual lifestyle as one revolving entirely around sodomy, but that just isn't true. If you say that homosexuality is a sin because it seems a desperation of lust and nothing more (no reproduction of life), then isn't that the same for any fruitless sex? But the entire world does that, apparently there's nothing wrong with it. The truth is, we were cleaved in flesh to enjoy it--where is the sense in denying it? A just God would have known that before he ever created Adam.

We cannot rise against each other. Anyone who hates is going against what Jesus spoke. You may feel it to be wrong, and that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but accepting differences is what forges Salvation; how can one know good without recognizing evil? How can one salvage their pleasure without differing it from pain? How can one know individuality without seeing their fellow beings for who they truly are, and accepting them?

I would enjoy quoting Scott to conclude this...

"Just give love to all." :)

[creedsister]

that was a great Message Sincirr And i dont Mind at all Reading Long Posts About My God And his Children keep Doing So If you feel Lead too I know I do hehe A big GOD BLESS YA ;)

[creedsister]

Sincirr i think i just replyed to your post Underneath Somebody Elses post i promise Things like this only happrns to me``Well said to you and the other dude vooovoroov or whatever hes or hers name is```geesh :dunno:

[RMadd]

I have never before posted on this thread, quite frankly because I find some of your posts exremely judgemental.

ain't nothing wrong w/ that... it's called having an opinion, or being set in your beliefs... you call it close-minded or judgemental, i call it knowing exactly what i do and don't believe in

[hide]

I haven't read this whole thing; I read the last page of messages. But I can see where it is going.

Now, think about this, please, and be open-minded:

"God is Love. You cannot know God if you do not know Love." I know it says that somewhere. Now consider, while homosexuality may be a human mentality, it's... how someone is, isn't it? It's not anything recent; homosexuality has been practiced since the ancient Greeks. But only now is it recognized as a status of being. So, put yourself in their shoes: if you're a homosexual, and you must know Love to know God, and you cannot know Love unless it is homosexual Love, then what do you do? If God is love, then why would he damn them for that?

The Bible was written by human beings, whether you believe in it or not. If you accept that God exists, but look past all that humans have made of Him, think about it; He created us, the Earth, the Universe that holds it, and He would love his creations like Parents love their children. Comitting a true act of inhumanity against our race is Hellworthy, but loving another person... how can that be the same?

I can see where some of you might think of the homosexual lifestyle as one revolving entirely around sodomy, but that just isn't true. If you say that homosexuality is a sin because it seems a desperation of lust and nothing more (no reproduction of life), then isn't that the same for any fruitless sex? But the entire world does that, apparently there's nothing wrong with it. The truth is, we were cleaved in flesh to enjoy it--where is the sense in denying it? A just God would have known that before he ever created Adam.

We cannot rise against each other. Anyone who hates is going against what Jesus spoke. You may feel it to be wrong, and that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but accepting differences is what forges Salvation; how can one know good without recognizing evil? How can one salvage their pleasure without differing it from pain? How can one know individuality without seeing their fellow beings for who they truly are, and accepting them?

I would enjoy quoting Scott to conclude this...

"Just give love to all." :)

first of all Homosexuality was practised well before the Greeks hence the term
Sodomy as in Sodom and Gommrah less then 1000 years after Adam and Eve. Secondly you say that there is all this fruitless sex and everyone is doing so isn't homosexuality okay as well? The answer is no both are not right at all. That is now the bible describes God's intended design of us and our sexual pleasures. Also seek the figures, statisics for violence in lesbian relationships is staggering when compared to hetrosexual relationships and the health consequences for gays is well documented.

I hope I do not appear judgemental although I probably am. God does love all and we are not to judge but people should be made aware of the scriptures say not bowing down to whatever society of the day saids and compromsing according to those values.

[Sincirr]

if you're a homosexual, and you must know Love to know God, and you cannot know Love unless it is homosexual Love, then what do you do? If God is love, then why would he damn them for that?
It doesnt matter whether U R homosexual or Heterosexual. The love of a partner is NOWHERE NEAR the love that comes from God, if anything, it demonstrates how much more perfect God's love is. It is a step toward God's love.

If I have a gay friend come to me with a problem with their boyfriend, especially if they are not a Christian or struggling with the whole God thing, and say to me, "I love him....etc...", I'm not gonna sit there and tell them about what the bible says about their practices sending them straight to hell; (even though it says it right there).

As with one of my sexually active non-Christian friends, I'm gonna listen to them and perhaps give them advice, pray for them, with them if they let me, and hope that through our contact, God reveals his perfect love 4 them. Always look deeper than the obvious sin U are confronted with and discern the real need. Also respect God's timing. He was patient with all of us, wasnt He?

Also, heterosexual or whateversexual, theres domestic violence and std's.

[creedsister]

I loved your post sincirr Patiens is something that we all cant get enough of in our walk with God No matter what were called todo``patiens yep but God is on time God Amen And Amen He always knows what hes doing were just vessels wating on him to guide us And Prayer is the best thing you can do for anybody Sometimes we pray for people and it seems gods not Hearing us And we pray and see others rise and fall but you know what Sometimes we feel like we have not done Nothing But gods always in controll He deals with everybody in his own way And on his time Sometimes We Got set back And let God do the rest Like this from pslams~~BE STILL AND KNOW THAT IAM GOD And he is the aurther and finsher of our faith~~Peace be whicha Now :)

[JulieCitySlicker]

Sincirr ,
You have good points there ;)

[souldancer]

No words to quell the tiredness that comes from hearing others judgements and self-opinions. Thank you sincarr for your openess and broad mindedness...let us not forget that non human animals practice a variety of sexual practices....not that we should mind theirs...but that,
we should friggin mind our OWN and stop minding others'!!
Sorry, I just get really pissed at people who think that THEIR way is THE way...OK..cooling off...taking a shower with Scott now.. :)

[Sincirr]

Sorry, I just get really pissed at people who think that THEIR way is THE way...OK..cooling off...taking a shower with Scott now.. :)
LOL
I will be glad when this thread is done, lets talk of other things, con-sarnit!

[Sincirr]

I think my father made it perfectly clear that homosexuals (heathens) will burn in hell for all eternity.
Mark 13:6

[souldancer]

LOL
I will be glad when this thread is done, lets talk of other things, con-sarnit!
Ha, ha...yes! What about talking about LOVE ?!

Love all Creation.The whole and every grain of sand in it.
Love every leaf and every ray of light.
Love the plants. Love the animals. Love everything.
If you love everything you will perceive the Divine Mystery in all things.
Once you perceive it
you will comprehend it better every day.
And you will come, at last, to love the whole world
with an all embracing love.
-- Dostoyevsky, Brothers Karamazov

[njcreedite]

Souldancer....you ROCK girl!!!!! :D

I just love it when people throw their Christianity in other people's faces..and then have the nerve to say they aren't judgemental. They're
just "right". The bible is open to interpretation. Why do you think there have been soooooooooo many wars fought over it? Because everyone interpret's it differently. Whose to say which view is right and which is wrong?
Hey, I'm a liberal. I admit it. Do I think you are wrong in your conservative views? Yes, but I still think you have the right to voice your views. That does not however, give you the right to "damn" others to hell, vilify them, and say that they are less valuable to the human race than you. Who are
you to decide if they are right or wrong...good or bad... sinful or not? Again....the bible was written by MAN!!! Very little in it is specific. For every verse you mention leaning one way, I can find one going the other way. It was meant to be a guideline....not to start wars and cast judgements..
All over it's pages are the words..."Ye shall not judge...."
Oh..and history is full of examples of human error in interpretations....
Salem Witch Trials....
Persecution of Left-handed People (the devil's tool)....
Mental illness being the hand of the devil
just to mention a few of the better known ones...

[Dogstar]

Right on, souldancer and njcreedite. I couldn't have said it better myself!

[bgivens33]

It's not in the "Top Ten" list.... so... I'm thinking in another 25 years or so it will be thought of as divorce is now.

[njcreedite]

It's not in the "Top Ten" list.... so... I'm thinking in another 25 years or so it will be thought of as divorce is now.

let's hope so...intolerance is intolerable.

[Dogstar]

It's not in the "Top Ten" list.... so... I'm thinking in another 25 years or so it will be thought of as divorce is now.

:D

[bgivens33]

Yes, but is tolerating intolerence intolerable? Or do you have to become intolerent to intolerence to become tolerent?? That is the real question.

[Dogstar]

LOL, now that's a tongue-twister, but I see your point.

[njcreedite]

Yes, but is tolerating intolerence intolerable? Or do you have to become intolerent to intolerence to become tolerent?? That is the real question.

Ahhhhhh excellent point. I think we all need to be tolerant of all people but can be intolerent to intolerable ideas...

[Prs4me]

Quote:I usually leave these threads alone...cause I tend to be more liberal than most, but.....

Not that long ago left handed people were persecuted as being of Satan.
Now of course we know that being left handed, right handed or ambidextrous is just a part of brain function...nothing more, nothing less.

Sexual orientation is the same thing. I'm hoping someday science will be able to prove (it's already done this..but I guess it's still too complex for most to understand. ) in an easily understood way...how this is all just a matter of brain function. Till then, I just hope most people live and let live.
__________________


I could be wrong but isnt that like saying God messed up when He created man. IMHO science will never prove that homosexuality is in the "genes".
If anything they will label it as hereditary only because they can not explan it.
God would not create something, then say what He had created sinful.
Just a thought.

[Sincirr]

Tollerance is intollerable!
Love everybody!!!!!!!!!!!!

[creedsister]

Quote:I usually leave these threads alone...cause I tend to be more liberal than most, but.....

Not that long ago left handed people were persecuted as being of Satan.
Now of course we know that being left handed, right handed or ambidextrous is just a part of brain function...nothing more, nothing less.

Sexual orientation is the same thing. I'm hoping someday science will be able to prove (it's already done this..but I guess it's still too complex for most to understand. ) in an easily understood way...how this is all just a matter of brain function. Till then, I just hope most people live and let live.
__________________


I could be wrong but isnt that like saying God messed up when He created man. IMHO science will never prove that homosexuality is in the "genes".
If anything they will label it as hereditary only because they can not explan it.
God would not create something, then say what He had created sinful.
Just a thought. God Made Everything For Himself By Him Self B/C He Is God ]]] Hes at the door knocked and shall be open>SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND

[souldancer]

Quote:I
I could be wrong but isnt that like saying God messed up when He created man. IMHO science will never prove that homosexuality is in the "genes".
If anything they will label it as hereditary only because they can not explan it.
God would not create something, then say what He had created sinful.
Just a thought. So, maybe God didn't mess up. And, what makes you think that God refers to homosexuality as sinful? I only know of people doing that.

[Dogstar]

Exactly, SD. And somebody earlier mentioned that it was not listed in the Top 10 of dos and don'ts. :D

[hide]

Exactly, SD. And somebody earlier mentioned that it was not listed in the Top 10 of dos and don'ts. :D

well its not something that people say and God doesn't care about, as much as we would like that to be the truth. Go and read your bibles both the Old and New Testaments. Genesis, Levictus, Galatians are a good start!

[Dogstar]

The Bible was written by man, thus it's said by man. It's all about interpretation and as njcreedite has said, wars have been fought over its words.

[hide]

The Bible was written by man, thus it's said by man. It's all about interpretation and as njcreedite has said, wars have been fought over its words.

2 Timohty 3:16 the bible claims to be inspired by God, and if you say that is rubbish then hell we'll just invent our own God then! There are areas open to interpretation but this is not one of them, its black and white!

[hide]

let's hope so...intolerance is intolerable.

it will be thought of as divorce is now but is this is from man's perspective after all that changes from year to year at best and means not much at all.

[Dogstar]

2 Timohty 3:16 the bible claims to be inspired by God, and if you say that is rubbish then hell we'll just invent our own God then! There are areas open to interpretation but this is not one of them, its black and white!
Operative word, *claims* to be inspired by God, interpreted by man. Nothing in this life is black and white.

And there are those who believe man did invent God, just to explain the unexplainable...I'm not saying I subscribe to that thinking, but there are a lot of people who believe that.

[bgivens33]

Quote:I usually leave these threads alone...cause I tend to be more liberal than most, but.....

Not that long ago left handed people were persecuted as being of Satan.
Now of course we know that being left handed, right handed or ambidextrous is just a part of brain function...nothing more, nothing less.

Sexual orientation is the same thing. I'm hoping someday science will be able to prove (it's already done this..but I guess it's still too complex for most to understand. ) in an easily understood way...how this is all just a matter of brain function. Till then, I just hope most people live and let live.
__________________


I could be wrong but isnt that like saying God messed up when He created man. IMHO science will never prove that homosexuality is in the "genes".
If anything they will label it as hereditary only because they can not explan it.
God would not create something, then say what He had created sinful.
Just a thought.


Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners???? :confused:

[bgivens33]

2 Timohty 3:16 the bible claims to be inspired by God, and if you say that is rubbish then hell we'll just invent our own God then! There are areas open to interpretation but this is not one of them, its black and white!

But, the entire Bible was written by man. It's not like man wrote the bible and at the very end God puts a disclaimer... "It looks good to me". Man included that part as well. You have to be careful taking the Bible to literally. The most important part of the Bible is not what is right and wrong, but the way Jesus lived his life. That's what is the difference between real Christians(literally interpreted as "one who follows Christ") and other "Christians", the ones who are more interested in saving than serving. And I myself, am neither.



"I saw things so much clearer, once you, were in my, rearviewmirror"

[Sincirr]

This WILL upset some of U. But Christians believe the bible to be the word of God, so I need to show U some stuff and U can have it out with each other after. Please at least read the section about the pagan practices if U dont wana read the rest.

Here is a verse talking about the practice of homosexuality. This verse was not only written by man but by moses who got it from God:
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. Their blood will be on their own heads.

WAIT! Let me finnish...

In the same writing, God says:
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

God was serious about the practice of homosexuality, heterosexuality (If a man commits adultery with another man's wife....both...must be put to death;Lev20:10), but he was serious about the practice of other things as well, including mistreating people and being deceptive. I am a Christian, but I am bloody guilty of cursing my mother. We have issues that span way back that provoke it that are none of anyone's business here, but the point is:

I SHOULD BE DESTROYED! IT SAYS SO RIGHT THERE!!!!
Same punnishment as the men that had that intimate encounter of sorts...

THANKS TO CHRIST!!! I SHOULD BE DEAD ON THE SPOT, BUT BECAUSE OF HIS GRACE!!!!!!!! I AM ABLE TO HAVE LIFE TO THE FULL, AND ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIM!
(of course I also have a chance to make things right with my mother)

ALSO!
The practices that the Lord is refering to in this passage were related to the pagan religions practices mostly, who did all sorts of sexual acts to appease their gods. It was said that a sexual orgy would bring rain in Egypt, and the rain would signify the...ehem...gods excitement...if u get me. No its true.

God didnt like what these people would get up to in the name of their gods and he didnt want his people behaving the same. That is the most practical way to explain this verse.

I'm sure this is gonna bring up controversy, but at least we actually read a verse for once and really looked at. Sorry if I offended anyone too much.

Have your shot.

[souldancer]

Sorry if I offended anyone too much.
Have your shot.

I am not touching that with a ten foot burning bush! :mad1:
Sincirr, what happened with our topic on LOVE?! ;) Heck, does'nt it say something in the bible about ..and the greatest of these is Love? And, aren;t there any people out there that believe in metaphors? Metaphysical intepretations? Wasn't the bible was written in Aramaic in an Agrarian male dominated culture hundreds of years later.
Alas, One God, many Paths..and King James is just one river to the Ocean, and what a narrow river with many rapids it can be.

"All religions, all this singing, is one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
The sun's light looks a little different on this wall than it does on that wall...
but it's all still one light." - Rumi

[hide]

okay so we are clear that the Bible teaches clearly that God detests homosexuality? Like any other sin those who practise homosexuals are unrepenant sinners and then are clearly not fit to lead God's people. That many of them are leaders in today's churches is a very sad situation. That many of them prey on young boys is even worse.

[hide]

before anyone replies i urge you to read this first!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v9n1_homosex.asp

[Prs4me]

Quote:
Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners????


Man was not created sinners, we were created with free will.
Sin didnt enter the world until man made the wrong choice.
Sin then became a part of every person after.

[Sincirr]

"All religions, all this singing, is one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
The sun's light looks a little different on this wall than it does on that wall...
but it's all still one light." - Rumi
Sorry, but there is something in the bible about even satan appearing as an angel of light. In light of that verse, I examine all light comin at me. It's just an instinct.

No offence, but I am a Christian and the bible is my book. I simply posted what hide was refering to in my book, and made an attempt at deciphering it. I think historically I didnt do the worst job.

I also recall that our conversation spoke of us all being on a journey to understand true love ;) and though I dont agree with all U or even Hide says, I still consider what U say, cos I am learning along the way.

Thanks for your opinion though. You are a very smart and passionate person, who truly loves people. I can see that by what U post. Sorry to cause any grief.

Please dont hate me.

[Dogstar]

I don't hate you, I just don't share your beliefs. As SD said, one God, many paths. You are free to believe what you believe, but to dismiss the entire rest of the world that doesn't share your beliefs makes me sad, frustrated and angry. Sorry to offend, but that's what I believe.

[bgivens33]

Quote:
Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners????


Man was not created sinners, we were created with free will.
Sin didnt enter the world until man made the wrong choice.
Sin then became a part of every person after.


Not to open up a pre-destination debate... but, I was born a sinner. I had no choice but to sin. The whole, "man chose to become sinners" just doesn't hold water to me. God knew we were going to sin. He created us that way. God was not suprised when Eve sinned(Adam was just in the wrong place at the wrong time). Man never stood a chance to live a sinless life. Now, I don't know if homosexuality is something you are born with, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. If they say they are born with it, than who am I to argue with them? It's not like homosexuality is an easier lifestyle for them. I just don't think in the whole grand scheme of things, homosexuality is that big of a deal. And, even more importantly, it's between them and God.

[njcreedite]

Boy....this thread can really stir up one's passions. As I've said in the past...I'm very liberal (about some things..not all things).
Science has proven that their are certain differences in the brain function of homosexuals than heterosexuals...I suppose I should go track down the latest findings and post a link. :rolleyes: . Will have to do this one of these days.
As for the Bible...um,,,yes, MAN wrote it. Inspired by God, as told by God..whatever, but the bottom line is..Man wrote it. It didn't just show up one day all written out. It was created over many, many years. Did you ever look at how many different versions there are of it? Interesting...and who do you think wrote all these different versiosn with all their different points of view?
Most of it is also written in parable form..or stories. Not facts and rules laid out..but parables. Stories... which are open to interpretation. Kind of like how we all interpret Stapp's lyrics differently. Not wrong...just different.
I don't hate anyone and certainly don't mind other opinions which differ from mine. I also am not trying to RAM my beliefs down anyone's throat, and telling them they are wrong or going to hell if they don't agree with me. Infact , I've actually said precious little of what my actual beliefs are..aside from the whole Homosexuality issue. I just don't understand why some people feel it's their business to judge others who are hurting no one. (oh..and pediphiles are usually NOT gay...just really sick!!! Many are married men..to women..who are sickos) I've many gay friends who are excellent citizens, do loads of volunteer work, are quite religious, and who ,are overall warm, friendly, wonderful people. Why do people feel the need to harass, vilify and malign these people? Why make them out to be scary, evil creatures? We are all just people doing our best to love and be loved. Who cares how, as long as it's love and both parties are of age and sound mind.
I just hope that none of you (you = anti gays) ever ever have a gay son or daughter. If you did? What would you do? Cast them out? I sure hope not.

[Sincirr]

Yeh, I'm sorry the verses caused so much trouble. I knew that they would piss people off, but I really wanted to point out that people are pointing at gays as being bad, but something as simple as cursing your parents was thought of as just as bad. I also wanted to point out that if someone who was gay believed that the bible was the word of God, could see that in Christ there is no condemnation.

I have a good friend and her son gets picked on at school and called gay. What njcreedite said about having a son that turned out to be gay is something i have thought about with this guy, cos the family are christians right, but what if he is? I cant be saying stuff against it cos he will think it applies to him personally where his relationship with God is concerned if he ends up coming out, and I would hate to think that I have put him in a position where I have made him feel that God is inacessible to him.

This is something I am grappling with, as well as many others here. I appreciate what has been said, and am sorry again for pissing people off. I'm on learner plates.

[souldancer]

okay so we are clear that the Bible teaches clearly that God detests homosexuality? Like any other sin those who practise homosexuals are unrepenant sinners and then are clearly not fit to lead God's people. That many of them are leaders in today's churches is a very sad situation. That many of them prey on young boys is even worse.
Hide.. :confused: Clear about what?

Sincirr. - don;t hate you at all! Just hope you don't have any gay children.

OK, this will be my last reply to this thread (well, perhaps...but then, as I woman I am fickel..and just who is responsible for that? I keep hearing alot about God created man...man this and that..)

Including some text below from a web site I had bookmarked awhile ago..Nothing is 'validated' (whatever that means), as I don't use the Bible religiously....but, it brings up interesting points...and I believe that Critical Thinking, Rationality and Creativity, along with Free Will are wonderful gifts God has given us.
________

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18).

[JulieCitySlicker]

I have a cousin that is gay and I love him to death :D It doesn't bother me at all really. I love him the way he is :) I don't agree with his lifestyle but its not my place to judge!

Hi there souldancer :D

[hide]

we can throw our opinions to and fro until the end of days but the scriptures are very clear on the issue!

[RMadd]

we can throw our opinions to and fro until the end of days but the scriptures are very clear on the issue!
and that is precisely what I believe

[njcreedite]

we can throw our opinions to and fro until the end of days but the scriptures are very clear on the issue!
So..sense you believe sooo much in what scripture says about homosexuals...you must also believe what Souldance had written about not eating shellfish..pigs etc. Does this mean you also don't use doctors or medicines..cause you can read that into the scriptures too. Or do you just select the scripture passages that you like best and ignore the rest?
Sorry to sound so mean and nasty here...but this is the exact point many of us here have been trying to get across. Most people ingore parts of the Bible and scripture..and only abide by those selections they deem relevent to them. Isn't this a bit hypocritical? From what you say...you should believe every word in the Bible and thus obey everything. Do you really do this?
To judge someone and to say their an abomination, to throw chosen passage of scripture at them is wrong. Unless you are living 100% by the Bible..then you have NO Right to judge others and say who is and isn't living as God intended.
And once AGAIN....The Bible was written by MEN...NOT GOD.

[RMadd]

And once AGAIN....The Bible was written by MEN...NOT GOD.
To paraphrase a verse whose source I cannot recall:
"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking...etc"
Yes, it was written by men, but these amazing men could not have written it without the Lord's help.

[Dogstar]

Right ON, njcreedite...:clap: :clap: :clap:

[bgivens33]

To paraphrase a verse whose source I cannot recall:
"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking...etc"
Yes, it was written by men, but these amazing men could not have written it without the Lord's help.


Exactly. It is God-breathed scripture. But, the Bible is not necessarily a living document(i know i'm going to catch hell for that). The old testament law basically becomes obsolete when Jesus comes. You have to look at it in the context of when it was written. You can't just look at the old testament by itself. That is taking it out of context. In the beginning, there was the old testament, and that is how things were. Now, here comes Jesus and that's how things should be.... Love, not condemnation. Do you really see Jesus boycotting Disney because they allow their workers to share insurance not only with their spouse, but their "partner"??? Of course not. The Southern Baptist are taking on the role of God by punishing homosexuality. That is NOT their place, and neither is it anybody's.(besides God's)

[Sincirr]

we can throw our opinions to and fro until the end of days but the scriptures are very clear on the issue!
This part is really only for Hide and other Christians.
Yeh I know what U R seeing, but just consider what I said concerning the pagan practices that were goin on.

It's like tattoos, right, they were detestable to God cos of the reason they were being done. It was a pagan practice. These days people have no idea of that and get them done for all different reasons. Even Christians get crosses on them and in some denominations everybody gets a cross done on their hand. I doubt that they are goin to hell for it.

BTW, this is 2 everyone, U have seen my posts in the past. I dont hate gays. Neither does God, cos He told me. So please dont think that I do.

[njcreedite]

To paraphrase a verse whose source I cannot recall:
"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking...etc"
Yes, it was written by men, but these amazing men could not have written it without the Lord's help.
Ahhhh and do we know this for sure? How do we know passages weren't written by some well spoken, well written self serving person of that time? We don't now do we. There have been many many false prophets...do we know for sure that their aren't any who contributed to the Bible? Nope.
Also...Man (men...not women) put his own spin on things when writing the Bible. Little science was known...women were considered possessions, and the people were scared to death of anything they could not explain (there for it was a bad thing). They may have been "good men", but their knowledge and perspective is questionable in this day and age.
Oh..and about Jesus...10 commandments were written before him..do we just throw those out the window? Not everyone believes in Jesus..does that mean they are wrong? What they believe is less valid than Christianity?
I think not.
One more amazing fact....Georgia (joining a few other states..like Florida) will be banning the use of the word "evolution" from science classes. Oh yeah..that's a step in the right direction. What are we to raise a generation of ingnorant youths? I don't understand why the evolution of man and creation have to be mutally exclusive. How do we know that God did not send Man out of the Garden of Eden and into the cave??? God's timeline is not the same as ours...or at least that's the theory...so why do we assume we couldn't have evolved from the apes..and still have been from Adam and Eve? Both theories can work together...same with the big bang theory and many others.
Oh and for those wondering...I'm liberal...I'm not a democrat or republican..I vote for the best choice..not party, and I was raised Catholic.. went to Catholic school etc.. I've argued many points with the priests and nuns over the years and must say, many of them are more open-minded than some of you. I'm Catholic, but not a "good" one. I have my own opinions and don't follow anything or anyone blindly.

[hide]

the subject of evolution/creation or origins is one that brings out a lot of fire in the belly, but let me make it clear its not science versus religion, its really two different religions. It takes a lot of "faith" to believe in evolution. That the big bang somehow created order, that there are all these missing links but still believe, that we can't see evolution happening but we are told that because it happens over millions of years we can't see it but trust us! Doesn't intelligent design make more sense? Take the bird lung, it is a competely different system to the repitlian lung, yet we are to believe that it arose somehow from chance from the repitlian lung?

What religious schools should do is teach both theroies side by side and allow the students to make up their own minds. And state schools should stop force feeding evolution, which is a theroy that has holes everywhere as fact to our youth! if anyone wants to find our more visit www.answersingenesis.org

[Sincirr]

Yeh, but wasnt prayer banned in heaps of schools as well? It's not just the belief of evolution that's getting persecuted.

[bgivens33]

Prayer is not banned and never will be banned. I'm guessing you mean school lead prayer is banned. Yes, that is true, but that is just separation of church and state. You can still find prayer in private schools because they of course, don't get any type of state or federal funding.

[american_bad_a$]

The bible is explicitly clear on every issue mentioned here. in romans and severy other books, it says that homosexulaity is wrong. that still applies today. one can't say, "that was written a long time ago. times change, and this verse doesn't apply in to todays society." well, that is wrong. if we took that view on the bible, then we could commit any crime we wanted. the bible is clear on this issue, and also about what we can eat and not eat etc... the bible says that is eating meat makes one fellow christina stumble, then we are not to eat around that person. it doesn't mean it is is wrong, just wrong for that person. because it is going against his conscience.

the bible was techincally written by men. however, it was not composed by men. the holy spirit was "telling" then men what to write. it is the inspired, authoritative, word of God.

[RMadd]

Prayer is still legal in public schools. It's merely the act of teacher or other administrators leading the students if it there exists no other option. For example, a teacher could lead a prayer in a Christian study group so long as all students present are fine with it.

[creedsister]

This part is really only for Hide and other Christians.
Yeh I know what U R seeing, but just consider what I said concerning the pagan practices that were goin on.

It's like tattoos, right, they were detestable to God cos of the reason they were being done. It was a pagan practice. These days people have no idea of that and get them done for all different reasons. Even Christians get crosses on them and in some denominations everybody gets a cross done on their hand. I doubt that they are goin to hell for it.

BTW, this is 2 everyone, U have seen my posts in the past. I dont hate gays. Neither does God, cos He told me. So please dont think that I do. Tatoos it was written that you should not have these things on your body as well as jewlery body makeup but in times of old christians did not do these things which a lot of this is coming from the old testimeant~~people of todays socitey are getting tatoos of christ like you said i think this is cool with the big jc ya know~~But in the time before christ was born only the evil wore gold And tattoos~~Im rambling But I guess What Im trying To say He died For all of these sins And By the blood we our set free I Really Doubt There going to hell for it 2 PEAce be which :)

[Sincirr]

Prayer is still legal in public schools. It's merely the act of teacher or other administrators leading the students if it there exists no other option. For example, a teacher could lead a prayer in a Christian study group so long as all students present are fine with it.
Cool, so there are some restrictions, just like with the word: "Evolution". I doubt that it wont be taught altogether just cos the word cant be used.

[souldancer]

(retracting comments)

[Sincirr]

The bible is explicitly clear on every issue mentioned here. in romans and severy other books, it says that homosexulaity is wrong. that still applies today. one can't say, "that was written a long time ago. times change, and this verse doesn't apply in to todays society." well, that is wrong. if we took that view on the bible, then we could commit any crime we wanted. the bible is clear on this issue, and also about what we can eat and not eat etc... the bible says that is eating meat makes one fellow christina stumble, then we are not to eat around that person. it doesn't mean it is is wrong, just wrong for that person. because it is going against his conscience.

the bible was techincally written by men. however, it was not composed by men. the holy spirit was "telling" then men what to write. it is the inspired, authoritative, word of God.
Just between us Christians (cos not everyone here is one) i can understand your defending what the bible says, but hey, it's not as if God isn't drawing gays, in fact, everyone, to Himself.

He wants none to perish but have everlasting life.

[creedsister]

:) :) :) Just between us Christians (cos not everyone here is one) i can understand your defending what the bible says, but hey, it's not as if God isn't drawing gays, in fact, everyone, to Himself.

He wants none to perish but have everlasting life.

[american_bad_a$]

Just between us Christians (cos not everyone here is one) i can understand your defending what the bible says, but hey, it's not as if God isn't drawing gays, in fact, everyone, to Himself.

He wants none to perish but have everlasting life.

that is correct. however, being gay is till wrong. i do not hate them. i do not look down on the,. we as christians are to love them and pray that they will recognize and turn away from their sin. yes, god does not want every one to perish. however, a certain number must perish (go to hell) because a certain number will go to heaven. but this is a whole other topic - predestination/election and double election.

this is the funnies show - :homer:

[CreedH8er]

It's Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve. It's not natural, and I am defintaley not a supporter of anything gay, especially marriages, this world be an even more messed up place if they were leagal. That's my opinion.

[RMadd]

And that's why you should vote for Bush! All these faggy Democraps want to legalize some sort of gay unions.

[american_bad_a$]

And that's why you should vote for Bush! All these faggy Democraps want to legalize some sort of gay unions.

you deserve a gold star. no one has ever said it better.

I am a die-hard rebuplican

[bgivens33]

Marriage is a state's rights issue, it really doesn't have much to do with the president. I would hope that no one would vote accordingly.... but I expect it to happen anyway.

[Sincirr]

And that's why you should vote for Bush! All these faggy Democraps want to legalize some sort of gay unions.
you deserve a gold star. no one has ever said it better. I'm a diehard republican.

U republicans sure have a different doctrine to mine. This doesnt sound like not hating them.

Oh and this includes your views on predestination, which doesnt just have one theory.

[american_bad_a$]

U republicans sure have a different doctrine to mine. This doesnt sound like not hating them.

Oh and this includes your views on predestination, which doesnt just have one theory.

what is your theory?

[Sincirr]

Well some think that certain verses that are used can be explained in other ways. We could pick em apart on another thread if U like.

Why do U need faith at all, why repent? cos if we are predestined, well we are predestined arent we?

Some say that its really screwed up of God to allow people to be born here on this earth that have no chance of salvation. Doesnt sound like a God who sent His Son into the WORLD, not to condemn it, but to save it. I dont mind that one.

MY theory...I've been in endless discussions about it before, but I guess...my stand on it is to leave that to God and just focus on the none to perish thing, cos it's none of my business who makes it or not. Personally, I dont wanna label someone that seems unsaveable as predestined for hell just cos they drive me nuts. Perhaps not as theoretically impressive as you would like, but there are more important things to focus on than that thing! No offence.

[creedsister]

Well some think that certain verses that are used can be explained in other ways. We could pick em apart on another thread if U like.

Why do U need faith at all, why repent? cos if we are predestined, well we are predestined arent we?

Some say that its really screwed up of God to allow people to be born here on this earth that have no chance of salvation. Doesnt sound like a God who sent His Son into the WORLD, not to condemn it, but to save it. I dont mind that one.

MY theory...I've been in endless discussions about it before, but I guess...my stand on it is to leave that to God and just focus on the none to perish thing, cos it's none of my business who makes it or not. Personally, I dont wanna label someone that seems unsaveable as predestined for hell just cos they drive me nuts. Perhaps not as theoretically impressive as you would like, but there are more important things to focus on than that thing! No offence. Hey sincirr i did try to start another thread too shead some light on all of this The Old And New Testimeant in this forum Duh~~Bottom line just love everybody as best you can Gays blacks whites saints sinners you get the point LET THE ALMIGHTY BE THERE JUDGE~~LOVE em ALL LET JESUS SORT THEME OUT~~!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sincirr]

Youre right sweetie.
I didnt see your other thread. Tah.

[creedsister]

Youre right sweetie.
I didnt see your other thread. Tah. hahaha i looked over your post well im sure sincirr one you saw it by now LOL

[CreedH8er]

Here's my stance, what are gays good for anyways? Just like the French, no one needs em. HA. They are the devil, and they have no place in the church, and I can't beleive all these homos are getting married in Cali, makes me sick.

[njcreedite]

Here's my stance, what are gays good for anyways? Just like the French, no one needs em. HA. They are the devil, and they have no place in the church, and I can't beleive all these homos are getting married in Cali, makes me sick.
:rolleyes: You really feel this way? Well you have lots of company
on this board. I just don't get why so many people are soooo afraid of gay people. Any one not the same as you should not scare you. God made them as well as you. I just can't believe how narrow minded, bigoted and self-rightous people still can be in this day and age. Who cares what a persons sexual orientation is? Why is this such a big deal? I just don't get it.
There are so many important issues out there...human rights, poverty etc.. These are real problems. Sexual orientation is not.

[whitebird]

My question is this. Why is CreedH8er member of the week? Has no one sounded out the name? "Creed Hater". ????

I think that this board has taken some distinct turns that I personally do not like.

I would perhaps suggest CreedH8ter, that your views show your own insecurity and fear.

[archie bunker]

not to take up 4 him i think he done it for a joke he probly wants to see who will get pissed off :D

[american_bad_a$]

homosexuality is such a big deal, because it is strictly forbidden in the bible. we are not self righteous, well, at least not me. but i am intolerant of gay people. they are doing what god has not made them for. and god does not make people gay. he knows that they are gonna be gay, but it is the gay mans choice to be gay. i am not scared of gay people, i just think they are sick. it is not natural for two men to have sex. sex was created for marriage between one man, and one woman.

creadh8r, you have a good point, but way overstated. i don't agree with everything you said, but on your fundemantal beliefs on this, i agree with you on, so i won't debate you on this, cause you are for the most part right.

but to anyone who wants to debate this further, show me somewhere in scripture, where god allows homosexuality. and nothing but the bibile counts. this is the religious forum.

[Sincirr]

homosexuality is such a big deal, because it is strictly forbidden in the bible. we are not self righteous, well, at least not me. but i am intolerant of gay people. they are doing what god has not made them for. and god does not make people gay. he knows that they are gonna be gay, but it is the gay mans choice to be gay. i am not scared of gay people, i just think they are sick. it is not natural for two men to have sex. sex was created for marriage between one man, and one woman.

creadh8r, you have a good point, but way overstated. i don't agree with everything you said, but on your fundemantal beliefs on this, i agree with you on, so i won't debate you on this, cause you are for the most part right.

but to anyone who wants to debate this further, show me somewhere in scripture, where god allows homosexuality. and nothing but the bibile counts. this is the religious forum.
Christianity is not the only religion included in this forum ok? So U cant say nothing but the bible counts. If U are speaking to Christians specifically thats a different story.

"they are doing what god has not made them for"....I kinda think that alot of us are like that. We are all on a journey to what we were really meant to be. Doesnt mean God loves us any less. And doesnt mean that Jesus isnt calling them to Himself.

You say you are intollerant of gay people? Your gifting is not evangelism then. Cos Jesus loves gays.

[american_bad_a$]

so you think being gay is alright?

[archie bunker]

i think people can sometime experiment,but thats fucked up to marry them.I cant imagine me looking at a woman every morning saying i love you :eek: its really fucked up for the shit dick men who do it... ah its fucked up... big hairy ass men caressing each other in love :vomit:

[Sincirr]

I dont wanna have a Christian debate on a forum like this, but I feel that Romans 5:8 is all we should be focusing on when we interact with these people.

[archie bunker]

i think they are worth being helped but they are still fucked up :D

[Sincirr]

You gotta look at your own sin b4 u go pointing at others! Were called to NOT JUDGE!

[archie bunker]

yes youre right i have many sins but i'm allowed to say that it makes me sick i could not do it personally ;)

[Sincirr]

You said they were F**ked up......

[GeeK_2004]

:wtf::wtf::wtf:
:confused::confused:

[creedsister]

You gotta look at your own sin b4 u go pointing at others! Were called to NOT JUDGE! Thats right Sincirr!!!We Cant Judge Anybody!!!} and if Even we know] somebodys doing wrong we still cant judge B/c Jesus gets the final word!!Love Theme all let God be There Judge!!!! And Blessed Is the Pure Of Heart For They Shall see God!!!} Sins Were whashed Clean By jesus christ!!!Amen Amen} Let Not your heart be troubled!!!

[creedsister]

You said they were F**ked up......
Whats happend since i been gone!!!}Awwwww~ Jesus Loves Everybody!!!! Sinners Saints Gays Drunks} Everybody!!!

[american_bad_a$]

I dont wanna have a Christian debate on a forum like this, but I feel that Romans 5:8 is all we should be focusing on when we interact with these people.

yes, romans 5:8 is all well and good, but that doesn't really apply here. it matters, but that is not what we are talking about in this instance. read romans 1:20 to the end of that chapter. also, 1 corinthians 6:9-11. also, 1 timothy 1:8-11.

there is no excuse to be gay. it is forbidden. how can one read these passages, and still say it is okay to be gay? anyone got an answer for me?

yes, we are not supposed t ojudge in the way the christ will judge, but there is a big differenct in judging and pointing out someones sin. anyhow, when the end comes, and christ judges, we, the christians will have a part in juding the people as well.

[creedsister]

[QUOTE=archie bunker]yes youre right i have many sins but i'm allowed to say that it makes me sick i could not do it personally ; STOP in the name of LOVE} stop in the name of Love!!!

[archie bunker]

stop ass!i dont agree with it thats what this thread is about if you think its right or wrong i think its fucked up plain an simple!!!!!!!!!! :chair:

[american_bad_a$]

[QUOTE=archie bunker]yes youre right i have many sins but i'm allowed to say that it makes me sick i could not do it personally ; STOP in the name of LOVE} stop in the name of Love!!!
'
i do not understand what you mean in this quote.

but in regards to your last one, god does love everyone, as john 3:16 points out. but that doesn't mean that everyone has a place in heaven. find my last quote here and look up the verses. they leave no excuse to be gay. that is where i am coming from. i am not talking about god's love. that is a whole different topic.

[archie bunker]

Thats right Sincirr!!!We Cant Judge Anybody!!!} and if Even we know] somebodys doing wrong we still cant judge B/c Jesus gets the final word!!Love Theme all let God be There Judge!!!! And Blessed Is the Pure Of Heart For They Shall see God!!!} Sins Were whashed Clean By jesus christ!!!Amen Amen} Let Not your heart be troubled!!!
KISS ASS TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!!

[creedsister]

Hahahaha!!!

[archie bunker]

i see how you are now! :mad:

[american_bad_a$]

what are y'all talking about? i can't understand your quotes!!

being gay is wrong. there is not way to get around it.

[archie bunker]

we are arguing cause the comment i made on the previous page i said the same as you and i'm getting shit dogged right now 4 it :mad:

[Dogstar]

Here's my stance, what are gays good for anyways? Just like the French, no one needs em. HA. They are the devil, and they have no place in the church, and I can't beleive all these homos are getting married in Cali, makes me sick.
Your hatred makes me sick. And people wonder why there is so much violence in the world. It starts with this kind of hatred. Views such as yours make me sad for this world.

[american_bad_a$]

Your hatred makes me sick. And people wonder why there is so much violence in the world. It starts with this kind of hatred. Views such as yours make me sad for this world.

i can agree wit hyou on that. i don't hate gay people - or anyone for that matter. i just hate what they do, and how people try to justify it using propaganda instead of factual information.

archie_binker - you need to calm down. dogstar is right, hatred is not good, and that is how you care coming accross. i don;t know if you mean it they way is sounds, but that is the way he are taking it. so just keep that in mind.

but gay people are in the wrong - there is just no way to get around it.

[archie bunker]

i can agree wit hyou on that. i don't hate gay people - or anyone for that matter. i just hate what they do, and how people try to justify it using propaganda instead of factual information.

archie_binker - you need to calm down. dogstar is right, hatred is not good, and that is how you care coming accross. i don;t know if you mean it they way is sounds, but that is the way he are taking it. so just keep that in mind.

but gay people are in the wrong - there is just no way to get around it.
did anybody see me say i hate them NO!!!!!!!!!i never ever said i hated them i said its fucked up 4 them to marry each other THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

[archie bunker]

if i hated them believe me im not a bit shy to say it!I dont hate nobody except child rapist an child murders :mad:

[Sincirr]

yes, romans 5:8 is all well and good, but that doesn't really apply here. it matters, but that is not what we are talking about in this instance. read romans 1:20 to the end of that chapter. also, 1 corinthians 6:9-11. also, 1 timothy 1:8-11.

there is no excuse to be gay. it is forbidden. how can one read these passages, and still say it is okay to be gay? anyone got an answer for me?

yes, we are not supposed t ojudge in the way the christ will judge, but there is a big differenct in judging and pointing out someones sin. anyhow, when the end comes, and christ judges, we, the christians will have a part in juding the people as well.
Point is, at this point in time, U shouldnt be concerned whether it is ok or not ok to be gay. What U should be focusing on, is verse 11 of your 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 quote.

Rom 1:20 Talks specifically about the pagan practices of that time. I am finding it hard to point the finger with that one cos of that. Especially to people like Elton John's gay church, who are trying to get closer to God.

The 1 Tim quote is interesting, but says nothing specific about gays. And here is the rest that U didn't bother to read:

What your verses said....then:
12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.


13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

[creedsister]

Sincirr Nice Post!! Anybody in these Days YESSS The Last Days He said he would Pour Out his spirt upon All Flesh those Who Were bound For darkness Shall Be set free!! And some May Propheci!!! Way To go Elton!!! I dont know the scriputres To back this But i know They Our there!!! Sincirr has that Aced You know were they are and you can type my typing suck Which makes it hard for me WHEN IM TRYING TO MAKE A POINT} Ya know what evertime} I come to this thread I Keep going Over The same stuff Is anybody Hearing NO NO NO} Will They Ever hahaha Go figure!!!} sincirr you listen to me Which is a Cool thing Or you would sound like these morons}} hehe I Kill Me!!!] Song For thought} NickleBack Someday~~Peace!!!!!!!!

[Sincirr]

Thanks sis.

If anyone was wonderin', Elton saw some interviews with one of the girls that was killed in the Collumbine massacre. Her father was a Christian too, and Elton was touched by the accounts of Rachel's father and wanted to meet him. God gave Rachel's father a prophetic word for Elton when they met. Pretty exciting.

[creedsister]

Thanks sis.

If anyone was wonderin', Elton saw some interviews with one of the girls that was killed in the Collumbine massacre. Her father was a Christian too, and Elton was touched by the accounts of Rachel's father and wanted to meet him. God gave Rachel's father a prophetic word for Elton when they met. Pretty exciting. thats killer i luv hearing all about stuff like that!!ya know!!! i dont listen to a lot of eltons music!!!] But when i do!! It touches Me] And i think hes A gifted song writer as well] that was good news!!!Oh your welcome by the way :)

[souldancer]

(speechless...I start to write and words fly out..I erase, re-write, and then I start to feel hate inside from this thread, and I don't like that. So, I start to leave without saying anything (appreciating Dogstar's words and a few others though) and feel that is wrong too.
So, here is a question. What if you find out you have a gay child or relative. Will you still love them?
I believe we each need to stand up for our fellow beings, stand up against hatred and for compassion. I don't need a book or a verse to tell me what is right or wrong/good or bad. I can feel it in my heart - there is an inner Knowing if we get fear out of the way and reach deep enough for Truth.

[Dogstar]

I believe we each need to stand up for our fellow beings, stand up against hatred and for compassion. I don't need a book or a verse to tell me what is right or wrong/good or bad. I can feel it in my heart - there is an inner Knowing if we get fear out of the way and reach deep enough for Truth.

THANK YOU, souldancer...I was trying to find the right words but you found them for me!

[whitebird]

"All We Are Saying Is Give Peace A Chance" Peace for all, not for those that you would personally choose.

[bgivens33]

(speechless...I start to write and words fly out..I erase, re-write, and then I start to feel hate inside from this thread, and I don't like that. So, I start to leave without saying anything (appreciating Dogstar's words and a few others though) and feel that is wrong too.
So, here is a question. What if you find out you have a gay child or relative. Will you still love them?
I believe we each need to stand up for our fellow beings, stand up against hatred and for compassion. I don't need a book or a verse to tell me what is right or wrong/good or bad. I can feel it in my heart - there is an inner Knowing if we get fear out of the way and reach deep enough for Truth.

That's all fine and good, but where do you draw the line?? If I vote for a president that is against gay marriage, and I him feeling that way is one of the reasons I vote for him, aren't I, in a way, judging homosexuals??

[american_bad_a$]

okay sincirr, i agree with everything you said, but how does that fir into it being okay to be gay?? and that is all i need to be concerned about cause that is the purpose of this thread. i don't need to concern myself with anything other then it being right or wrong to be gay. i think it is wrong, and i have given you proof for that. you have given me nothing to persuade me to believe that being gay is fine.

you said,

What your verses said....then:
12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

okay, how does that mean it is okay to be gay? "I was shown mercy cause i acted in ignorance and unbelief..." how does that mean it is okay to be gay? it means that Paul was forgiven for his sins. the texts says he was granted mercy. because he was granted mercy, means he did something wrong. but he was forgiven. non of these verses you gave me have any reference to homosexuality. all of mine that i gave you, do.

elton's gay church. that is such a contradiction. they may be saved, and may be going to heaven, but that doesn't mean that being gay isn't wrong - it is.

i don't hate gay people, i just hate their sin, i think it is sick, and i hate it when people try to justify it - the bible is explicit when it comes to these.

here is a verse from the old testament. does this help you?

Leviticu 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male, as one lies with a female, it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestible act. They shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltyness is upon them."

[archie bunker]

creedsister your looking up your bible verses arent you? ;)

[creedsister]

son i undestand your point Being GAY IS A SIN!!!! K!!!! But we all have sin in are lifes no man is without sin now let me remind you of this No Sin in the eye sight of god is bigger or smaller to him} But you want proof of right or wrong i think you got it The bible says that being gay is wrong theres your point if i was gay which im not trying to make a point AND CRYED OUT TO GOD WITH ALL MY HEART IN SOUL HE WOULD HAVE MERCY AND I WOULD BE FORGIVED} Ok Lets take it that you sinned say you went out and slept with somebody and had sex without being marride And you said God foregive me!!! This happens alot But you cant boast About Somebody Elses sin being greater than yours!!!The Lord Your God judges You by Your Heart Not your sins!! He died A long Time ago For that Which was to come!!!And About Gays And Other sinners In this day In time And Age We promised Hope before His return Which is in revalations He would Pour His spirt out up on all flesh Saints sinners Gays And hand maidens But thats another Topic Bro to find The truth you must Seek And you shall find faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by faith!!! The question you asked is being gay Right!!! Your not Gay So god is not dealing with your heart About It But the lord For those who love him Hes reaching theme And telling Theme What They must know or the path!!! Now Im sure he must be dealing with you about something Now COME ON!!! You know its wrong want me to Find a scripture Were It will Justify YOUR sin Come on Or should I shut my mouth And let my jesus Deal With it COME ON Now!!!

[creedsister]

creedsister your looking up your bible verses arent you? ;) you know it come on!!! Come on!!!

[american_bad_a$]

son i undestand your point Being GAY IS A SIN!!!! K!!!! But we all have sin in are lifes no man is without sin now let me remind you of this No Sin in the eye sight of god is bigger or smaller to him} But you want proof of right or wrong i think you got it The bible says that being gay is wrong theres your point if i was gay which im not trying to make a point AND CRYED OUT TO GOD WITH ALL MY HEART IN SOUL HE WOULD HAVE MERCY AND I WOULD BE FORGIVED} Ok Lets take it that you sinned say you went out and slept with somebody and had sex without being marride And you said God foregive me!!! This happens alot But you cant boast About Somebody Elses sin being greater than yours!!!The Lord Your God judges You by Your Heart Not your sins!! He died A long Time ago For that Which was to come!!!And About Gays And Other sinners In this day In time And Age We promised Hope before His return Which is in revalations He would Pour His spirt out up on all flesh Saints sinners Gays And hand maidens But thats another Topic Bro to find The truth you must Seek And you shall find faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by faith!!! The question you asked is being gay Right!!! Your not Gay So god is not dealing with your heart About It But the lord For those who love him Hes reaching theme And telling Theme What They must know or the path!!! Now Im sure he must be dealing with you about something Now COME ON!!! You know its wrong want me to Find a scripture Were It will Justify YOUR sin Come on Or should I shut my mouth And let my jesus Deal With it COME ON Now!!!

okay, please, for my sake, learn how to punctuate your post, cause i can barely make heads or tails of it.

but that aside, i know all that!! the only thing that i am unsure of is that you said, "He would Pour His spirt out up on all flesh" and i don't remember where that is.

oh, god does judge by sin, he doesn't judge by hearts. he judges by our deeds, and that is, our sins, and what we have done with our life. the bible does n;t say that god judges the heart when it comes to heaven or hell. sure he looks at the heart, but that is not talking about heaven or hell as in reward or punishment for eternity.

[Sincirr]

okay, please, for my sake, learn how to punctuate your post, cause i can barely make heads or tails of it.

but that aside, i know all that!! the only thing that i am unsure of is that you said, "He would Pour His spirt out up on all flesh" and i don't remember where that is.
What kind of a Christian are U?!!!! We are saved by grace, not by works so that NO-ONE (LIKE YOU) CAN BOAST! How retarded!

And dont attack my friend over her typing, that was a cheap shot! Good typing or not, there was WISDOM in what she typed!

By the way, the passage is in Joel 2:28, and God looking at the heart is in 1 Samuel 16: um...7....
oh, god does judge by sin, he doesn't judge by hearts. he judges by our deeds, and that is, our sins, and what we have done with our life. the bible does n;t say that god judges the heart when it comes to heaven or hell. sure he looks at the heart, but that is not talking about heaven or hell as in reward or punishment for eternity.
I wish U could understand grace, but unless U are struggling with sin so bad and at the same time so badly wanting God and feeling so condemned, U would never understand Jesus' mercy.

Is it okay to be gay? It's not OK to be a sinner! U sin! I sin! The only difference is that we know we need Jesus. I dont give a crap what people do. Whether it be giving a false testimony of your neighbour, or whatever else U wanna point the finger at, cos all have fallen short of the glory of God. (Sorry to non-Christians reading, I am relating to a Christian here so dont be hurt by it). I have been friends with multiple murderers, heroin addicts and alcoholics, and some people with immense sexual problems that stem from BROKENNESS IN THEIR LIVES THAT JESUS WANTS TO FIX!

The reason why I have not outardly and obviously given u an answer to your question of whether it is okay to be gay, is because we are on a multi-belief's forum and when in a situation where I am amongst people, especially of a post-modernistic culture, in that sort of atmosphere my goal is to have my beliefs as my beliefs, perhaps try and explain them if they are brought up, but basically show who Jesus is by the way I behave, and that is a mega challenge! I have learned alot about that and grown heaps in the time I have been here. People like Soul Dancer have helped alot even though I may have upset her from time to time.

Perhaps my bible is different to their beliefs, but I am learning to respect them. Plus, what if someone gay was actually reading this? It's not their fault that they havent been introduced to Jesus...that very well could be mine!

[creedsister]

:) thank you sincirr !!!

[WeatheredWoman]

So, here is a question. What if you find out you have a gay child or relative. Will you still love them?
I believe we each need to stand up for our fellow beings, stand up against hatred and for compassion. I don't need a book or a verse to tell me what is right or wrong/good or bad. I can feel it in my heart - there is an inner Knowing if we get fear out of the way and reach deep enough for Truth.

Touch down!!! So true! I can relate to every single word you said.

"All We Are Saying Is Give Peace A Chance" Peace for all, not for those that you would personally choose

Touch down!!!

[whitebird]

I spent a great deal of time today speaking with someone who is gay. Someone who I love and respect, and who I also except. Listening to them speak about the difficulties of their lives because of the prejudice of judgemental persons in our society is heartbreaking to me.

I have listened to the words that some of you have posted in this thread, and your words are cruel. Words in this thread are used to cut and to hurt others who may be different than yourselves.

With your words you wound as surely as if you had used a sword. Where is the Christanity in knowingly hurting another? You profess to teach those who would read your words. You have taught me, but not what you had intended. I have learned your use of the bible is a tool to condemn, to twist the words around to fit your own beliefs. To feel validation and vindication, while looking down on another of God's people.

All I can say to you is, may you someday feel shame for what you do now.

[Sincirr]

My college is a Christian college. We have gays studying there, cos we were founded by the uniting church, which allows Gay clergy. I'm not their denomination, I'm charismatic, but I dont even see these people as gay. I dunno, they are just nice people. We are all on a journey in God.

There are also alot of gays that audition for our stage productions and get in. I think its great, cos Christians have to mingle with them and get to know them. It's really good for us cos it breaks down the barriers. I think it's big of them to even audition for a Christian colleges musical! In one of the breaks, one non christian asked to sit in with us when we prayed. As if we would have excluded him. That would just be wrong!

I dont understand why this thread has carried on so long. All that needs to be said, and shouldnt have been said, is in its MANY pages. Will we ever come to a conclusion? heck no, so theres no point. Its just gonna piss people off and hurt people, create disunity, including my posts on my brother bada$$. Sorry.

I'm a Christian, so I am the enemy here, but even I have grown weary of this thread!

[whitebird]

Sincirr, I think that you are right, that people learn compassion through interacting with others different than themselves. Thank you for your story about your journey to God and to understanding others.

Please notice in you words however, that you refer to yourself as Christian, and Gay people as non Christian.

I myself am Christian too, I simply hold different views than some on this board.

Peace

[Sincirr]

Thanks for your patience. The guy I refered to as a non christian was one guy in particular, but since he was prayin with us, perhaps that was not the case, sorry bout that.

[Jester]

ok here is my :2cents:
(Preacher kid talking here) I am a Christian and I have found in my life that it is possible to be "gay" and still be a christian being "gay" is not a sin however acting on thoes feelings would be.


Christ has told us to go to people in love, so it absolutly pisses me off when you got people on the 5 o'clock news claiming to be christian holding up signs in the background reading "FAGS GO TO HELL" or "GOD HATES FAGS" that is not a loving message and this is not how I want my beliefs represented that is why I am not always up front about my Christianity because it carries a negitive sigma with it I feel it is better to let people get to know me before I start in on religion.

thanx for listening

[whitebird]

Ah, breezes of compassion are blowing in like a soft wind.

[Sincirr]

hehe.

Welcome, Jester.

[Dogstar]

I spent a great deal of time today speaking with someone who is gay. Someone who I love and respect, and who I also except. Listening to them speak about the difficulties of their lives because of the prejudice of judgemental persons in our society is heartbreaking to me.
Me, too, whitebird. One of my best friends is gay and I'll tell you right now that I don't know what I would do without him. I feel so bad for him because he feels he can't live the way he wants to because of the societal discrimination against gay people. And I know there is all this *debate* about whether gay people choose to be gay or are born that way. I can't imagine someone willingly choosing to be gay in the judgmental, hateful climate in which we live, so I believe people are born with their sexual orientation. And it simply shouldn't matter. They are no less human beings than heterosexual people are. This whole us vs. them thing is ridiculous. We still haven't even progressed far enough in the race issue, either. It sickens me to think people still judge people on the basis of race or creed. Aren't we all God's children? That's the way I understand it.

[whitebird]

(speechless...I start to write and words fly out..I erase, re-write, and then I start to feel hate inside from this thread, and I don't like that. So, I start to leave without saying anything (appreciating Dogstar's words and a few others though) and feel that is wrong too.
So, here is a question. What if you find out you have a gay child or relative. Will you still love them?
I believe we each need to stand up for our fellow beings, stand up against hatred and for compassion. I don't need a book or a verse to tell me what is right or wrong/good or bad. I can feel it in my heart - there is an inner Knowing if we get fear out of the way and reach deep enough for Truth.

From souldancer's post to here, I can see compassion. I give her great credit for getting this positive direction going. Thank you so very much souldancer, you are a diplomat for peace and compassion.

Thanks Dogstar, people who condemn others don't just hurt the people that they attack, they hurt everyone that is associated with that person, like you and me. The circle of pain and anguish extend so far, that it doubles back to the original person doing the hurt, and they may not even recognise where it is comming from by the time it goes full circle. Some call it Karma, whatever you call it, it is a resulting effect of how we live our lives and the way we treat others. Maybe our posts have made a little difference in the way people might see how deeply their words can wound? I think your friend is a lucky person to have you in his life.

[Dogstar]

Thank you, whitebird. I feel as if I'm the lucky one to have him in my life :). And you are right, the endless hurt is mind-boggling and so overwhelming to me sometimes. I get so down thinking about it. I sure hope our posts at least let people know that life is far from black and white. There are never any easy answers, not if you look at an issue thoroughly.

[whitebird]

A question for WeatheredWoman. How does the Netherlands differ in regard to acceptance of others different then themselves? Many people on this thread are from the U.S.A., and I feel that often I am limited in learning about other cultures. I know that may seem like an huge question, but if you share just a little, I would appreciate it.

[WeatheredWoman]

A question for WeatheredWoman. How does the Netherlands differ in regard to acceptance of others different then themselves? Many people on this thread are from the U.S.A., and I feel that often I am limited in learning about other cultures. I know that may seem like an huge question, but if you share just a little, I would appreciate it.

Ok I will try to tell a little bit... hope I spell everything correct and my grammar isn't sometimes all that!

The Netherlands was in my opinion a very tolerant land and still is in many ways...

According to gay people... Amsterdam is Gay City over here. We've got every year a Gay Parade and a Gay Pride through the waters of Amsterdam. Gay couples can get married over here, that's legal. I have some gay friends too just like some of you.

Prostitution is legalized. So prostitutes do pay taxes as well.
Abortion is legalized.
Marihuana/weed is legal at a certain level, therefore the many "coffeeshops" in Amsterdam... a user may have a little amount of drugs in his possession for own use. You may have a maximum of 5 marihuana plants in your own home. Alcohol is legalized for kids from 16 and up.
But according to driving a car we're allowed to drive a car on the age of 18 and that's 16 in your country.

So far what still is very tolerated in this small country with about 15 a 16 million people.

Most people over here like to compare the Netherlands today with the U.S. of A. 10 years ago. We were never familiar with safety at schools... like gun-control that sounded so crazy to us 2 years ago but now we have it too.

Holland is multi-cultural actually! Especially Amsterdam... we've got Turks, Marocs and people from the Netherland Antilles (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) livin' here. But we can feel right now in the community that there are many cultural and religious differences. It was a very relaxed country but by mixing with the people I've mentioned before... the problems began. Marocs and Turks have got some kind of revange-out-of-honor in their culture that gives them a certain right to commit a murder in case of "family-problems".

Now I must speak on behalf of myself mostly, but in my opinion their culture lies about a hundred years behind ours and that can't be mixed. They have so many problems integrating in our country. The men out of these countries are used to very humble women, so they keep their women in their houses and stuff. That's weird in a very emancipated country as Holland.

About two weeks ago a teacher was shot through the head by a turkish boy, marocs and turks stabbing people, shootings, slaughtering of goats, sheeps on their balcony or in their backyard etc.... Dutch people were not familiar with that sort of violence. So now we're dealing with these kind of problems... and I can feel that people are gettin' a certain hatred against those people. But that is a feeling that grows slowly but resistant. That's because our government has denied these problems at first and now it's getting a huge problem. They are actually breeding racism that way... I'm a bit concerned 'bout the future in that particular case. The people are beginning to refer to "future" city-names like Amsterdam is going to be Islamsterdam, Amersfoort is going to be named Imamersfoort... ok they're makin' fun about it right now but it's a serious problem.

We are gettin' also ghetto's over here... never had! The difference between poor and rich is getting bigger and bigger.

Further on Dutch people are very down to earth, not over-dramaticly... when someone acts a bit over the top we like to say : hey don't be so american :o LOL!! I think we're called greedy too... But hey this is all generalization! Every person is unique.

According to acceptance it's mostly in the big(ger) cities where everyone will be accepted the way he/she is... in the smaller cities it's lesser. But in my opinion that's equal in America or wherever you may go...

And we're living in a relative small country with so many people. The lesser space people get the more aggresive they get... things will get on your nerves much easier.

The acceptance is growing low, going downhill. :(

I hope that this answer your question a little bit whitebird.

[WeatheredWoman]

You know what makes a big difference too?? The experiences one had in life. I've met so many people in my life! from pimps to yellow to white... from prostitutes to businessmen to drugsdealers... from children to men to women... each with their own lifestory! Each with their own feelings... and that's what counts. Inside we're feeling all sort of the same... we all want peace, love! No matter what we look like on the outside. But people do judge the book by it's cover... even I do, even you do although we rather don't.

Mostly you can relate peoples averses to fear... fear for the unknown, i think it's a natural defense. What you don't know, can kill you... (a saying if I'm correct)

[whitebird]

WeatheredWoman, thank you so much for telling us about your culture. You covered a great amount of facts, and my knowledge has increased due to your kindness.

There are many wonderful things about the U.S.A. The beauty of the land in our country is so varied. It is like being in many different countries, from coast to coast. People vary as much as the land, with many accents and languages, and skin tones form a beautiful rainbow with many races.

However some of the cultural difficulties are the same in each of our countries. Many people living together, who have different beliefs, and customs. They call America "The Melting Pot Of The World", meaning all cultures blending together, as though melted as one. It is a wonderful thought, but not entirely reality. Prejudice exists, sometimes to extreme levels

And like your country, the gap between the rich and the poor, seems to be growing, and our elderly are having difficult times getting health care and medicine, because they cannot afford the costs. Even though Americans support many causes outside our country, there are children that go hungry within our own cities. Women with children to care for on their own have become a large percentage of the growing poor.

Laws for large business grow stronger, and the rights of small business, and the individual persons grow weaker. It is happening slowly, but steadily.

I have hope for the future however. I am meeting people like yourself who feel that we can make a difference in this world. Many on this board have learned from each other, myself included. Also, we teach by sharing our personal experiences in life, and you have taught me today.

I must sign off for tonight, but I would like to share more with you later.

Good Night.

[american_bad_a$]

i am not going to read all of these posts, cause a lot of them do not apply to what the topic is. this thread is about being gay and whether or not it is okay to be gay. i submit to you that it is not, and so far, no one has proven me wrong. i have given y'all scriptural proof that being gay is wrong. i can't totally agree with jester, but i understand where he is coming from. being gay is a choice. Why do i think that? cause it is not how or what we were created for. but i understand his point, i just don't agree with it 100%

if i had a gay kid, i wouls still love him - that is not the question. would i be disgusted? absolutely. would i cut him off and not speack to him again until he repented? if he was a christian, yes. that is what we are called to do with people who are in sin like that, and will not repent.

i do not hate gay people. i am judging them for their sin, that i can do. they are sinning and are in sin. i think it is possible to be gay and still be a christian, but that doesn't make it right.

to anyone out there who still wanted to actually debate, convinve me that homosexuality is okay.

[Sincirr]

Well U may cut your child off cos they have come out, but the Lord never leaves U nor forsakes U.

[TeriB19]

i do not hate gay people. i am judging them for their sin, that i can do.
Who died and made you God?? I thought God was the only one that judged us, sorry, my mistake.

[whitebird]

American Bad A$

You know, I think you are right. I think we should move this new twist to a new thread. I had hopes that this thread would fade onto the back pages never to be see again. It has been a shameful embarrassment. But, I see that our interest in understanding our different cultures, has given it life again, and that is not something that I want to do.

You can continue your debate with people, but I think that there may be a few who would agree that this has gone on too long.

My belief is that there are apportunities presented in life for us to learn from, if we choose not to accept these lessons, they often arise later in our life as a more drastic learning experience. Watch out on this issue, you may be forced by fate or God to learn the hard way.

Peace


Those interested, I think I may start a thread in the Chat-O-Rama. Please let me know what you think.

[american_bad_a$]

white bird, start one if you like, i'll put my 10 cents in there.

and sincirr, i know god never leaves us nor forsakes us. but i am not talking about him. go look up 1 corinthians 5:11 in regards to cutting off fellowship with a believer who is living in sin. that is what we are supposed to do. if we continue to have fellowship with a person whoi is libing in sin, we are condonging their sin, and that is not right.

[HeadachyMatt]

lol yah serious, this thread has gone on much farther than i expected

i am pleasently surprised though at the undersanding people had on the subject

just remember, and keep in mind i am christian, for evey quote in the bible, there is a quoute from the same book to counter it

and my view stands that sense gay is something u are born with, it cant be a sin, go ahead and comment, on that, but i doubt i'll be comming back to this thread

but seriously, lol i cant believe this thread went so far, but its cool

have a good day everyone

[creedsister]

Well U may cut your child off cos they have come out, but the Lord never leaves U nor forsakes U. you got that right and another thing ive never seen the righteous foresaking no matter what sin they have done my friend thats why we need it a place called calavary!!! Were Everybody was set free!!!and another thing i will never foreget what my daddy said to that Sinner that hung beside him!! Remebear me When you enter in your fathers kingdome!!! My daddy said} TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!!!

[american_bad_a$]

you got that right and another thing ive never seen the righteous foresaking no matter what sin they have done my friend thats why we need it a place called calavary!!! Were Everybody was set free!!!and another thing i will never foreget what my daddy said to that Sinner that hung beside him!! Remebear me When you enter in your fathers kingdome!!! My daddy said} TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!!!

go read 1 corinthians 5:11 and what it is in context with. abandoning chirsitans who are in sin is what we are supposed to do - until they repent of their sin. find me another verse to counter it, and i may believe you.

[HeadachyMatt]

go read 1 corinthians 5:11 and what it is in context with. abandoning chirsitans who are in sin is what we are supposed to do - until they repent of their sin. find me another verse to counter it, and i may believe you.


i will give only one, and i will not debate this with u

jesus said it "love thy neighbor as thyself" enough said

[american_bad_a$]

i will give only one, and i will not debate this with u

jesus said it "love thy neighbor as thyself" enough said

loving they neighbor as thyself is all well and good, but it has nothing to do with this present debate. you are to love everyone, but just not to associate with those who are living in sin.

any others, anyone?

[WeatheredWoman]

...find me another verse to counter it, and i may believe you.

Oh boy! I'm soooo glad that I've learned to think myself!!! And not to follow just verses... like sheep! LOL!

:baaa: :baaa: :baaa:

Come away from behind your bible-book A$... and give me some scientific FACTS!!! And yes, gay people are born that way! It has to do with the amount of your male and female genes (sp?). Haven't you learned that already in school???

In a way I feel so sorry for you... really! You are so narrow-minded, kid!
It makes your world so much smaller. I don't envy you for that! But then I comfort myself with the knowledge (not some verse! LMAO!!) that you're quit young! You still need some serious growing up. You may experience a lot in the years that lies ahead of you... it may as well change your believes!

Right now, I would love to make a big jump in time... let's say 20 years from now... and then talk about these things again with you! I know for sure that you are the one who would be surprised about yourself.

Peace my son!

[WeatheredWoman]

i am not going to read all of these posts, cause a lot of them do not apply to what the topic is.

I bet you did read the posts, otherwise you wouldn't know of their content... clever boy! :rolleyes:

And about that convincing-you part... I don't need to convince anyone! I'm living in a free country where everyone has the right to be wrong... LOL!!

[HeadachyMatt]

[QUOTE=WeatheredWoman]Oh boy! I'm soooo glad that I've learned to think myself!!! And not to follow just verses... like sheep! LOL!

very good point, its not like we can be ceartain that those who wrote the bible wrote it accurate

face it, there is corruption everywere, how are we sure someone didnt simply add anti-gay parts hmm

[WeatheredWoman]

American Bad A$

You know, I think you are right. I think we should move this new twist to a new thread.

Those interested, I think I may start a thread in the Chat-O-Rama. Please let me know what you think.

Whitebird I have to agree with you on that one... in that particular case A$ was actually right!

And about that new thread... You've got my vote for that! :thumbsup:

[WeatheredWoman]

very good point, its not like we can be ceartain that those who wrote the bible wrote it accurate

Thnx Matt!

face it, there is corruption everywere, how are we sure someone didnt simply add anti-gay parts hmm

LMAO!!! That was a huuuuuuge great one from you, Matt!! :thumbsup:

[HeadachyMatt]

I bet you did read the posts, otherwise you wouldn't know of their content... clever boy! :rolleyes:

And about that convincing-you part... I don't need to convince anyone! I'm living in a free country where everyone has the right to be wrong... LOL!!

lol well i skimmed it, but i had been gone so long i wasnt really in the mood to read EVERY post, but yah, i know most of the content

[whitebird]

WeatheredWoman, I love the jump roping sheep.

I going to start a new thread today in the Chat-O-Rama. I'm going to ask for people to let us know what their town, city, state, or country is like. Nothing has to be personal, just a general description is OK. I would like to learn about other areas in my own country, the U.S.A. and other countries that I have never had the pleasure to visit.

Thanks again WeatheredWoman for all the information on the Netherlands. I was really interested in the different laws, and the feelings of the people there.

[WeatheredWoman]

lol well i skimmed it, but i had been gone so long i wasnt really in the mood to read EVERY post, but yah, i know most of the content

:confused: Uhmm... Matt? This was towards American Bad A$... not towards you! Sorry if you pretended it that way. Or you 2 must be one and the same guy???

(Is it "toward" or "towards" ???)

[HeadachyMatt]

:confused: Uhmm... Matt? This was towards American Bad A$... not towards you! Sorry if you pretended it that way. Or you 2 must be one and the same guy???

(Is it "toward" or "towards" ???)

oh sorry, i thought it was torward me, forgive me, i get confused sometimes

[WeatheredWoman]

WeatheredWoman, I love the jump roping sheep.

Me too! ;)

I going to start a new thread today in the Chat-O-Rama. I'm going to ask for people to let us know what their town, city, state, or country is like. Nothing has to be personal, just a general description is OK. I would like to learn about other areas in my own country, the U.S.A. and other countries that I have never had the pleasure to visit.

I really love the idea whitebird!

Thanks again WeatheredWoman for all the information on the Netherlands. I was really interested in the different laws, and the feelings of the people there.

You're so welcome whitebird... I would love to hear from you how you think about my country after gettin' this bit of info! But that will be on the other thread :D:D:D

:hugs:

[creedsister]

Oh boy! I'm soooo glad that I've learned to think myself!!! And not to follow just verses... like sheep! LOL!

:baaa: :baaa: :baaa:

Come away from behind your bible-book A$... and give me some scientific FACTS!!! And yes, gay people are born that way! It has to do with the amount of your male and female genes (sp?). Haven't you learned that already in school???

In a way I feel so sorry for you... really! You are so narrow-minded, kid!
It makes your world so much smaller. I don't envy you for that! But then I comfort myself with the knowledge (not some verse! LMAO!!) that you're quit young! You still need some serious growing up. You may experience a lot in the years that lies ahead of you... it may as well change your believes!

Right now, I would love to make a big jump in time... let's say 20 years from now... and then talk about these things again with you! I know for sure that you are the one who would be surprised about yourself.

Peace my son! thats right i just not feel like debating no more with Mr i want proof!!! and im not going to keep replying the same thing everytime i come to this thread] B/c this kids not Listening!!!So i pray for him!

[WeatheredWoman]

thats right i just not feel like debating no more with Mr i want proof!!!

Good decision sis! :)

...and im not going to keep replying the same thing everytime i come to this thread] B/c this kids not Listening!!!So i pray for him!

He'll have to learn from life...

:thumbsup: !!!

Love ya sis!! :hugs:

[creedsister]

To AABA!!! you got all the proof you need About Gays in the bible!!} But There Is not a scripture That you will find ITs ok to be gay saith the lord And you Little know that!!!} But what i do think your seeking my brother is Wisdome But going about it the wrong Way} Ok!! But wisdome must grow And I do like your hunger For being so young} And i will leave you with this!!LOVE EACH OTHER THE WAY I HAVE LOVED YOU!!} Gays too!!! then god will let you know the rest!!! ROCK ON!!

[american_bad_a$]

screw y'all. i am wasting my time here.

why do y'all say things like that? i am narrow minded, and follow verses like sheep? that is just crappy. y'all only say that cause that is all that is left for you to say, why? because y'al lare wrong!!

no one is born gay. it results froma choice. no one is born with it because it is not natural.

if you people can't understand that, the god help you.

i am wasting my time here. y'all don't say anything but insults, which is just propaganda, while i present proof. yess, it is proof, this is the religious forum.

i am not coming back to this thread, you people spout nothing but nonsense, and false ideas.

[WeatheredWoman]

A$... You haven't proof anything to me!!! Where are the facts??? Alas... I've got one last thing to say to you: GROW UP!!! :rolleyes:

[creedsister]

Hold the phone now take a chill pill bro!!!only God Knows whos right or wrong And Im only Lead by the spirt Of God But Yes Theres A differnce between Opion In Truth!! Seek And You Shall Find!!!] calm Down!!!} Jesus Loves us All!!!} And there here there is Great People my bro!! And if you would calm down a bit You would know that!! GOD BLESS YA

[bgivens33]

Oh boy! I'm soooo glad that I've learned to think myself!!! And not to follow just verses... like sheep! LOL!

:baaa: :baaa: :baaa:

Come away from behind your bible-book A$... and give me some scientific FACTS!!! And yes, gay people are born that way! It has to do with the amount of your male and female genes (sp?). Haven't you learned that already in school???

In a way I feel so sorry for you... really! You are so narrow-minded, kid!
It makes your world so much smaller. I don't envy you for that! But then I comfort myself with the knowledge (not some verse! LMAO!!) that you're quit young! You still need some serious growing up. You may experience a lot in the years that lies ahead of you... it may as well change your believes!

Right now, I would love to make a big jump in time... let's say 20 years from now... and then talk about these things again with you! I know for sure that you are the one who would be surprised about yourself.

Peace my son!

Whoa whoa, back it up. People are born homosexual?? I must have missed that memo. Learn about it in school?????? I'm not sure where you pulled that from, yes it is a popular theory but it is no where near a fact.(although, I do agree with you) It's even less of a fact than evolution. But then again, what do I know, I'm a part of that young naive generation that you referred to. I have yet to grow up and become pretentious

[GeeK_2004]

A$... You haven't proof anything to me!!! Where are the facts??? Alas... I've got one last thing to say to you: GROW UP!!! :rolleyes:
When they were born (gays/lesbian)....were they gay to begin with ??