Separation of Church and State

[Higher_Desire]

Am I the only one who thinks separation of church and state is a load of BS that has, in recent months, been blown way out of proportion? First last year with the Pledge of Allegiance (something that has been said in schools for hundreds of years may I remind you) being judged "unconstitutional" because of the word "God" in it, now with a statue that has the 10 commandments on it is in threat of being removed from it's location because of it, and everything in between.

If you don't want to see it, don't look at it.

I thought the seperation of church and state was meant to help freedom of religion, but they completely contradict each other. We're allowed to worship however and wherever we want, unless it's in a public area or when one single person is around that may have a different point of view.

The controversy over the separation of church and state is really pissing me off. Just because there are some people that don't agree with aspects of either parts of religions, certain religions, or religion as a whole, why do they get to take away our freedoms?


H-D

[JulieCitySlicker]

It makes me mad to Colin:mad: If it wasn't for God none of us or this world in fact would even be in existance:( I feel that if people don't want to see things like God written in something then don't look at it! There is a great big giant cross outside of Effingham Illinois that people are complaining about to:mad: And people wonder why there are school shootings now,,,its basically because they are taking God out of the schools:( If you dissagree then thats fine. This is my opinion.

[bgivens33]

First off, let me clear some things up.

The "God" portion in the pledge of allegiance was ruled unconstitutional by the 9th Circuit court of appeals. They are the most overturned court in the country. If the case makes it to the supreme cout, it will get overturned. And they only have juristiction in a certain area of the country. Secondly, the phrase "under God" has only been recited in the pledge for ~50 years. Now, you said.....

We're allowed to worship however and wherever we want, unless it's in a public area or when one single person is around that may have a different point of view.

That is absolutely incorrect. You can pray or do whatever in public. That has nothing to do with separation of church and state. The problem lies when the government sponsors a certain religion. That is what happened with the 10 commandments. A government official, a judge to be exact, put a statue in a government building with the 10 commandments. That is wrong. That is NOT separation of church and state. The problem is, you are blinded by the fact that you are a Christian. If that judge had posted a popular verse out of the Koran or the 9 satanic statements, you WOULD be singing a different tune. Separation of Church and state is not only an excellent thing, it is a necessary thing.

[mel!ssa]

i don't really know much about this topic, but can i just suggest that maybe people are taking religion out of stuff because they are afraid to admit God's existance?

Although i have to admit, if there was a big giant cross in my street i certainly wouldn't want to look at it.

[Higher_Desire]

Originally posted by bgivens33
That is what happened with the 10 commandments.  A government official, a judge to be exact, put a statue in a government building with the 10 commandments.  That is wrong.  That is NOT separation of church and state.  The problem is, you are blinded by the fact that you are a Christian.  If that judge had posted a popular verse out of the Koran or the 9 satanic statements, you WOULD be singing a different tune.  Separation of Church and state is not only an excellent thing, it is a necessary thing.

I'd have no problem if they put up a statue with Koran writings on it. Just because I'm a Christian, doesn't mean I'm against other religions. I admit, of course, it plays a role in what I think and do, yet it is not the only factor. Most of what I think is from personal opinion and not was church as bestowed upon me.

Satanic statues are a different story because if you worship Satan, you are probably in a cult. Religion implys God as the head.

Did you know that high ranking government officials in Washington DC begin their meetings with prayer? How is that separation of church and state? They change the law to limit us, but keep things intact for them.


H-D

[JulieCitySlicker]

Originally posted by mel!ssa
i don't really know much about this topic, but can i just suggest that maybe people are taking religion out of stuff because they are afraid to admit God's existance?

Although i have to admit, if there was a big giant cross in my street i certainly wouldn't want to look at it.

The cross is actually on the highway out in the middle of nowhere Melissa:angel: I do agree with your point that they are trying to take God out of everything because they do not want to admit He exists;) That is the reason evolution came up in my opinion

[bgivens33]

Religion implys that God is the head?? Hmmmm..... let see what webster has to say about that.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

Congress does open things up with a prayer yes..... but, I don't find that to be a big deal. They invite a minister to prayer for their session.... sometimes even a homosexual pastor... how serious could they be about it? I'm not saying government officials can't be religious, I'm saying when a judge goes against federal law and puts a statue of the 10 commandments up, he is wrong. The government is now publicly endorsing Christianity, which they shouldn't do.

[ZION1010]

Originally posted by bgivens33
Religion implys that God is the head??  Hmmmm.....  let see what webster has to say about that.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

Congress does open things up with a prayer yes..... but, I don't find that to be a big deal.  They invite a minister to prayer for their session.... sometimes even a homosexual pastor... how serious could they be about it?  I'm not saying government officials can't be religious, I'm saying when a judge goes against federal law and puts a statue of the 10 commandments up, he is wrong.  The government is now publicly endorsing Christianity, which they shouldn't do. I Agree With You Besides God And The Goverment Just Dont Mix Not The Christ I Serve Anyway God bless You

[HigherGirl]

HigherDesire...........
I agree with you 110%!!!!!

[ZION1010]

Thanks God Bless

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Higher_Desire
<b>First last year with the Pledge of Allegiance (something that has been said in schools for hundreds of years may I remind you) being judged "unconstitutional" because of the word "God" in it, now with a statue that has the 10 commandments on it is in threat of being removed from it's location because of it, and everything in between.</b>

Question, if Pledge of Allegiance mentioned Bhudda, or Allah, whould how would you feel about being forced to say it?

Also ten commandments arebasically rules. Now courhouse must go only by civil/criminal rules, not by ones from any religious book. That's all there is to it.

[Dogstar]

Right on, bgivens!

[mel!ssa]

Originally posted by JulieLovesCreed
I do agree with your point that they are trying to take God out of everything because they do not want to admit He exists ;) That is the reason evolution came up in my opinion

Exactly! :D

[Higher_Desire]

Originally posted by Lechium
Question, if Pledge of Allegiance mentioned Bhudda, or Allah, whould how would you feel about being forced to say it?

Also ten commandments arebasically rules. Now courhouse must go only by civil/criminal rules, not by ones from any religious book. That's all there is to it.

God is mentioned in the Pledge because this country was founded by Christian persons and based on Christian beliefs. Over the years, that ideal has changed.

Speaking of "change," when are we going to get new money? The way I figure, American money will be judged as Un-constitutional becuase it says "In God We Trust" on it. Or, as Creed says in "In America," "Only in America, we stamp our god, In God We Trust." People who don't even believe in God or in Allah, Buddha, or any other supreme being, seem to have no trouble spending our money.

I'll be damned if I let God be taken out of the country, but you can't remove parts and expect the rest to not be a problem.


H-D

PS- We are not "forced" to say God in the Pledge. No one is "forced" to say anything. The're was and is no law that says the Pledge MUST be said.

[Dogstar]

Melissa I do agree with your point that they are trying to take God out of everything because they do not want to admit He exists.

I disagree. I believe the separation of church and state is necessary, because it allows for ALL religions to exist. Christianity is not the ONLY religion. If government got involved in religion (which it does in many countries and look at the civil wars fought in the name of religion), then it would most likely do its best to shove its beliefs down the throats of those who might worship differently, or worse, persecute those who don't practice as they do. It is a safeguard to prevent people from having to practice their religions in secret. Besides, I don't want MY tax dollars paying for something I may not necessarily believe in.

[bgivens33]

"In God we Trust" first starting appearing on coins during Civil War times. It was basically a feel good type gesture to try to get everyone to refocus on God. It didn't consistently appear on all money until the 50's. In the 50's it was voted as our national motto. It was basically a slap in the face to the russians who were looked at as heathans. The supreme court ruled it ok because they said it was more a ceremonial deity. I'm not really saying you are wrong about this, I'm just giving some background.

Common belief - Our founding fathers were Christian.

Actual Fact - Our founding fathers were deist or Unitarians.

I'm not sure when the Church tried to re-write history and claim our founding fathers were Christian, but I can assure you, they weren't.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

During John Adam's administration they ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship which states in Article 11....
"the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

T. Jefferson -
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Treaty of Tripoli - Passed during Washington's presidency. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

[Higher_Desire]

Point well taken, but it makes no sence as to why

... One nation, Under God... = Un-constitutional
In God We Trust = Constitutional

Whether the slogan on money is Ceremonial or not, I don't see how the two phrases are different. I also don't see how money can be ceremonial, yet the Pledge to the country, is not.


H-D

[bgivens33]

I might agree with you there... I'm still not sure about it. The Under God thing will get overturned if it hits the Supreme Court.... meanwhile, as long as you aren't in that 9th Circuit juristiction, you can say it anyway.

[mel!ssa]

Originally posted by Dogstar
I disagree. I believe the separation of church and state is necessary, because it allows for ALL religions to exist. Christianity is not the ONLY religion. If government got involved in religion (which it does in many countries and look at the civil wars fought in the name of religion), then it would most likely do its best to shove its beliefs down the throats of those who might worship differently, or worse, persecute those who don't practice as they do. It is a safeguard to prevent people from having to practice their religions in secret. Besides, I don't want MY tax dollars paying for something I may not necessarily believe in.

Oh, i wasn't saying the separation isn't necessary, like i said, i don't even know much about the topic. i was just saying that it seems people are taking every little thing about God out, not just the necessary clash-with-law and stuff, but everything, because they don't want to admit His existance. For example (and its probably not a very good one), Creation isn't even considered a possibility in schools anymore, even though evolution is just a theory.

[Dogstar]

Well, that depends on what you believe. And people believe many different things. There are many who don't consider evolution just a theory. I don't think it's about taking God out of things per se; it's more about keeping government out of religion. That's what I was talking about.

[mel!ssa]

Well the official status of evolution is it's a theory. Scientists say it's a theory. It can never be proved, it can be supported but it will always be a theory. According to my wonderful little Biology class, nothing can ever be proved, if you write in your experiment "it proved that" you lose marks, it can only be "it supports the theory that" etc

[Dogstar]

That's true about a lot of things, including the existance of God. Some believe in God, others do not.

[Torn Signs]

Originally posted by bgivens33
Religion implys that God is the head?? &nbsp;Hmmmm..... &nbsp;let see what webster has to say about that.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

Congress does open things up with a prayer yes..... but, I don't find that to be a big deal. &nbsp;They invite a minister to prayer for their session.... sometimes even a homosexual pastor... how serious could they be about it? &nbsp;I'm not saying government officials can't be religious, I'm saying when a judge goes against federal law and puts a statue of the 10 commandments up, he is wrong. &nbsp;The government is now publicly endorsing Christianity, which they shouldn't do.

One thing, you looked up religion. Religion is like a type of custom or tradition that a person can be in and has it's own ways of worshipping a chosen idol...christianity on your dictionary.com gave this as the very first definition-The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.-so yeah...God isn't head is he, you don't need to believe in his son and the holy spirit do ya? And another thing, I agree w/ Julie, the seperation of church and state has really messed up schools, 50 yrs ago there wasn't school killings, there was believers and families that stayed together...today after taking that out people find God as a fake thing along w/ his son and the holy spirit. So yeah it's really important to have church and state b/c he helps so much, who cares if you pray in school, cuz life is supposed to be about praising god and that's just what yer doin. Sry, don't want to argue :noargue: just my two cents worth w/o anyones pity. :P

[Dogstar]

And another thing, I agree w/ Julie, the seperation of church and state has really messed up schools, 50 yrs ago there wasn't school killings, there was believers and families that stayed together..

Um, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Taking prayer out of the schools is not the reason there are school killings. I'll agree it has to do with the breakdown of the family, but not a lack of prayer. Plenty of people worship these days, just not in publicly funded buildings.

[JulieCitySlicker]

I agree Dogstar :( It has a lot to do with the family of the child. I think there are a lot of families in the world today that shouldn't be allowed to have children:mad: Especially abusive people:eek:

[bgivens33]

Originally posted by Torn Signs
So yeah it's really important to have church and state b/c he helps so much

Ok, but instead of Christianity, let's incorporated Taoism into the schools... or how about Wicca?

[myownprison382]

Originally posted by mel!ssa
<b>Well the official status of evolution is it's a theory. &nbsp;Scientists say it's a theory. &nbsp;It can never be proved, it can be supported but it will always be a theory. &nbsp;According to my wonderful little Biology class, nothing can ever be proved, if you write in your experiment "it proved that" you lose marks, it can only be "it supports the theory that" etc </b>

Yes, this is how science works. You don't claim to know all there is to know about the universe, you just figure out the best explanation possible, and if a better one comes along, you adopt that. Yes, evolution is a "theory". So is Einstein's Relativity, and so was Newton's Gravitation before that. If you are using "theory" as if it's some sort of insult then I don't think you are fully understanding the idea.

Anyway, enough off-topic there, I didn't want to derail, but I can't stand that.

bgivens33 has said everything that needs to be said here. I don't buy that people would be fine with judges and government officials cluttering up offices, schools, and courts with quotes from the Qu'ran, Tao te Jing, or Wiccan whatever, if Christianity didn't get the same sort of representation. But the problem is where do you draw the line? When the religion that wants representation in government is a "cult"? Who determines that? I'm sure there are people who think Roman Catholicism is a cult.

[mel!ssa]

I'm not using 'theory' as an insult, i'm using it to disprove those who say "it is true". Whenever i talk about my beliefs, if i think the other person will think i'm saying "it is right", then i make sure i always say "i believe" etc. Evolution is a theory, Creation is my belief. It goes both ways, i'm not saying "this is right and this is wrong". I use "theory" to be fair.