Confederate Flag a.k.a. Rebel Flag

[Lady Valkyrie]

I have this t-shirt that has the confederate flag on it with big blue letters that say Tommy Hillbilly. I guess it was making fun of Tommy Hilfigur (sp?) I find it funny because I am a hillbilly... and my dad always teasted me saying that he should have named me Tommy because I was such a tom boy. When I wear it though some people give me nasty looks. Most of those who give me nasty looks are white. I don't see the confederate flag as a racial symbol. What do you guys think?

[Bridge of Clay]

I have no idea...

are you referring to that red flag with a blue "x" on it, and the blue is filled with white stars right???

I actually would like to know the true story of it, coz I´ve already seen a lot of cars here with bumpstickers of this flag...

[allison]

Yes, Marcos, that's the one. In short, it was the flag of the Confederacy (the south) before the US Civil War when the Union (the north) won and forced the south into the union of the USA. Someone correct me if part of this is wrong, I am not a history expert.

I don't necessarily think it's always meant to be racial (some think of it as a tribute to those who died for the south in the Civil War), but I personally wouldn't fly it b/c it does provoke so many bad feelings. I personally don't feel enough allegiance to it to bother. I just think, why display something that elicits so many negative feeling in people.

[Bridge of Clay]

I agree with allison...

[thanks for the explanation. I did thought it was it but I wasn´t sure... :) ]

[allison]

It's interesting though, Lady V, that people give you dirty looks b/c it's almost like the shirt makes fun of those that fly the rebel flag, b/c it says "tommy hillbilly". I don't know though, maybe they are people that like the rebel flag and what it stands for that are giving you dirty looks?:dunno:

[Unforgiven Fan]

The sourthern flag is not a racial symbol..I know that the confeds used in the cival war and the confeds were slave owners and supporters but I think people are misinterperting to much and jumping to the wrong conclusion. If I saw the southern flag I see the pride of the southerns but if someone was raised to beleive the flag ment racism then they would say it rasism. The problem is that people do not step back and see the whole picture of a situation and the get wilded up for nothing...

[Lady Valkyrie]

The confederate flag was used in battle.

The original flag of the confederacy was in the same pattern as the Union flag with 3 bold stripes (red on top, white in middle, and red on bottom), and blue square in the upper left corner with 7 white stars arranged in a circle. So consequently there was considerable confusion on the battlefield.

The seven stars represent the original Confederate States; South Carolina (December 20, 1860), Mississippi(January 9, 1861), Florida (January 10,1861), Alabama (January 11, 1861), Georgia (January 19, 1861), Louisiana (January 26, 1861), and Texas (February 1, 1861).

The Confederate Battle Flag: The best-known Confederate flag, however, was the Battle Flag, the familiar "Southern Cross". It was carried by Confederate troops in the field which were the vast majority of forces under the confederacy.
The Stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.

The second Official Flag of the Confederacy. On May 1st,1863, a second design was adopted, placing the Battle Flag (also known as the "Southern Cross") in the upper left corner on top of a white background. This flag was easily mistaken for a white flag of surrender especially when the air was calm and the flag hung limply.

The flag now had 13 stars having been joined officially by four more states, Virginia (April 17, 1861), Arkansas (May 6, 1861), Tennessee (May 7, 1861), North Carolina (May 21, 1861). Efforts to secede failed in Kentucky and Missouri though those states were represented by two of the stars.

The third Official Flag of the Confederacy.On March 4th,1865, a short time before the collapse of the Confederacy, a third pattern was adapted; it was the same as the previous flag with one difference... a broad bar of red was placed on the fly end of the white background on the right side.

Confederate Navy Jack: Used as a navy jack at sea from 1863 onward. This flag has become the generally recognized symbol of the South. It is just the "Southern Cross" with nothing extra.


The following is a quote from a BJ Meksikatsi with whom I totally agree with.

"It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights."

[jango]

It is a racist item. The war was fought primarily over slaver, sugar coated with "states' rights" propaganda. Why do you look down on the swastika? Because it's a sign of "evil" as many would put it. Many feel the same way about the Confederate Flag.

"You Lost, Get Over It" - Bumper sticker.

[Dogstar]

Yes, whatever its original intention, it evokes much pain and anger now.

[Lady Valkyrie]

There were many reasons for a Civil War to happen in America. Some issues started at the end of the American Revolution in 1782. Between the years 1800 and 1860, arguments between the North and South grew. One of the main quarrels was about tariffs paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. Southerners felt these tariffs were unfair and aimed toward them because they imported a wider variety of goods than most Northern people. Taxes were also put on many Southern goods that were shipped to foreign countries.

In the years before the Civil War the political power in the Federal government, centered in Washington, D.C., was changing. Northern and Mid-Western states were becoming more and more powerful as the populations increased. Southern states lost political power because the population did not increase as rapidly. As one portion of the nation grew larger than another, people began to talk of the nation as sections. This was called sectionalism. Just as the original thirteen colonies fought for their independence almost 100 years earlier, the Southern states felt a growing need for freedom from the central Federal authority in Washington. They felt that each state should make its own laws. This issue was called State's Rights.

Now on to the second issue...


The History of the Swastika
The Oldest Known Symbol


The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh. Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.
The Original Meaning

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.

Change in Meaning

In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.

By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.

Hitler and the Nazis

In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)

On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)

Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.

What Does the Swastika Mean Now?

There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.

Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?

In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

[Dogstar]

I really don't care what it meant 3,000 years ago. What it means today is evil.

[Lady Valkyrie]

watching the evening news evokes pain and anger... the christian fish symbol evokes anger... the pentegram evokes pain and anger... There are many things in this world that evoke pain and anger... the gay pride symbol evokes pain and anger... should we do away with free speech and ban all these things? A symbol, like the ones that we've talked about mean different things to different people. Should a symbol be done away with because some see it negatively? Many of you don't agree with or like my chrstian faith... some even see christianity as a negative thing. Should I then leave the board because of this?

[Dogstar]

People have a right to free speech, yes. I choose not to display something as hideous as the swastika or the confederate flag under my rights to free speech. And if I want to voice my opinion on it, I will and I have, just as you have.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Yes you have every right to have and state your opinion and carry out your free speech to not display these particular symbols. However my point was that these symbols mean different things to different people... who is right and who is wrong or are they both right? Back when I was a Wiccan I studied a lot of Hindu and some Buddaists ways... and have used the swastika in the positive... Not negative... way. I personally see the Southern Cross as a symbol of history a call for rights... and as a symbol that slaves were indeed freed. To fly the Southern cross doesn't mean that you are a racist now does it? Go read my testimony in the Faith and Religion forum in the thread entitled racism and you'll see that I am so anti-racist. And because a Hindu or a Buddaist uses the swastika in the positive way are they a Natzi? No they are not.

[Dogstar]

I am not accusing you of being racist. Perhaps the symbols do mean different things to different people. To me, a swastika is a symbol of evil. That's what it means to me, so I wouldn't ever display it. I'm well aware of your thoughts and opinions in the Faith forum. No need to revisit.

[souldancer]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
Buddaist uses the swastika in  
I am curious about Buddhists using this symbol. Can you please elaborate a little. Thanks.

[Lady Valkyrie]

In Buddhism, a swastika represents resignation. Usually found in the images of Buddha on His chest, palms, soles of feet.

To Hindus, the swastika with the arms bent to the left is called the sathio or sauvastika, which symbolizes night, magic, purity, and the destructive goddess Kali

[Aimee]

I grew up in Michigan and moved to Florida at age 18. I learned about the redneck culture and fraternized with my hillbilly family members. I saw this confederate flag everywhere- on bumper stickers, t-shirts, in the windows of cars the way our American flag is so boldly shown now. Two years ago, in Gainesville FL there was an issue at the local electric company GRU (which, in Gville, is government owned and run by the way) where an employee was not allowed to park his truck in GRU's parking garage because he had a confederate flag liscence plate on the front of his car. He fought this on the basis of free speech and lost the case. The judge ruled that the company can create whatever policy they want to about the parking of cars, overruling any other argument. After this, I was more aware of the fact that when I went to visit Michigan, I saw very few Confederate flags.
Many people see the Confederate flag as a symbol of the history that was the South. Thus, you'll see stickers with the flag on them that say, "Heritage not Hate." No matter what the actual meaning is, the consensus is what people take offense to. The majority of the population believe that the COnfederate flag represents the ideals of the old south and (though there is a history far beyond this) this mainly includes the freeing of slaves.
Same with the swastika - as Dogstar has pointed out. Nowadays, people see the swastika and think "Nazi" and, for the most part, that equals bad.
LadyV, I suggest that if you want to proudly proclaim your free speech without getting all those dirty looks, you go out and buy yourself a t-shirt with the Confederate flag on it that says, "Heritage not Hate." Or maybe all those dirty looks are coming to you from old southerners who believe you are making a mockery of their heritage by wearing the shirt you do.

[allison]

Originally posted by Aimee
Or maybe all those dirty looks are coming to you from old southerners who believe you are making a mockery of their heritage by wearing the shirt you do.

That's what I think may be happening, b/c it says "Tommy Hillbilly".

[Unforgiven Fan]

What all this comes down to us the interpertation of one's own view...

a symbol or word could have ment something in the the long past but it takes usally one bad or selfess culture to bring that symbol or word in the context of evil and hatred, and that meaning overshadows what the true meaning was and should still be....

[souldancer]

UF - good point! IMHO, the power of images/symbols is so strong because we are such visual creatures. It gets so complicated. I live in California and lean far away from the right, but I confess there are some times that I get a little overwhelmed by the zeal of political correctness! I wish that intentions and actions could be conveyed WITH our words and images, but symbols, as you pointed out, attach strong emotions, and get imbedded in our unconscious.

[creedfaner]

I think there are a lot of other ways to show racism other then that flag, if it even does show any racism.

I feel sorry for those who think it does...i seriously pitty you for being that easily wavered.

[Dogstar]

Well, that's a big group because many do find it racially offensive.

[Mulletman]

being from the south i am kinda partial to the dixie flag. i dont beleive it is a sign of racism, just southern heritage. now what is associated with that southern heritage is a different story. lets atek the swastika for instance, hitler wasnt the first to use that flag. it was originally used buy native americans and even some budist. i have some budist friends and they have pendats that still have the swastika on them. its even on some of thier stuff around thier house.

so to summerize i dont think its a sign of racism, just heritage.

[Read JDM]

I went on a tour in Atlanta one time and the lady on the bus told us: "Down here, we don't call it the Civil War. We call it the War of Northern Aggression."