shunammite
01-13-2003, 09:11 AM
In a dispute on another board, I said:
"I don't have time to set SM straight, granted I should give up, but I can't, you know how it is when you've got the urge to force your views on other people in a bad way, and I've got it, I admit it..."
And SM responded (apparently ignoring my slightly tongue in cheek but ok I was telling the truth too):
Yes, the urge to "force" one's views upon others is a negative, detrimental quality that seems to prosper amongst the deeply religious. It's easily their biggest personality flaw!
And I responded (SM is also Matt) as follows, I think it might be of interest here:
I admit it Matt. When I'm not "religious" I'm STILL "religious", I think it comes from just feeling things so INTENSELY.
But somehow you have to recognize that other people have a right to their own feelings also. That is what "Christ" is to me, to be fully in touch with your own vision, given personally and directly from God Himself and yet considerate of the VARIETY that exists within "God" and thus the DIFFERING PERCEPTIONS of other people. As far as you can. Sometimes it comes down to my way or their way, then someone has to DIE, and David the man after God's own heart was the "bloody man", but the Son of David is the Prince of Peace. (Solomon/Christ). And also to be ALIVE and thus still "malleable", able to change and grow, rather than carved in stone like the idols with no eyes no ears no ability to relate or be a blessing to anyone.
Look every man not on his own things, but ALSO on the things of others, Eph 2:4. It's pretty hard considering two opposite things equally, given our intolerance of "cognitive dissonance". I think we must give preference to our own vision, just enough to avoid "stalemate", I think that "golden mean" is the mathematical formula, 1.618etc. So it never feels good, we are either dissing ourselves or someone else, that is being "crucified" to me, but the vertical part of the cross, the part directed toward Truth, is the longest.
It bugs me no end that some translations remove the "also", the NRSV notably. Thus saying, forget all about yourself and only think of the other person. That is not right, to abandon integrity. It is not love for others to have no love for yourself, the fatal flaw in carelessly thought out "religion".
And contrary to the Bible also, "God forbid that I should justify you, till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me." Job 27:5.
I am the only person in the world who knows this you are so lucky to find me lol, but in the book of Ruth, it is an obvious allegory, only the dumbest of the dumb fail to understand this, "Ruth" is the little human seeking reunion with God, "safety", or "salvation". She has lost her natural husband, and is hanging on to her widow-woman motherinlaw trying to stay alive, two losers supporting each other as best they can. Then lo and behold "Boaz" surfaces, he is KIN to them and RICH AS CROESUS, all is well, but first he has to be sure that her "nearer kinsman" cannot take care of her. There are ten elders watching, "the law", or "Righteousness", they are perfectly useless in making any person feel "all right", because there is an abiding Honesty in all of us, we are all like the princess and the pea, uneasy with ANY FLAW WHATSOEVER. And this "nearer kinsman", I believe is our fellow human beings (all other "religious people" think he is "the law" that is hooey, we are no kin to the law, the law is always and ever AGAINST US, Col 2:14). We go to each one and ask them to perfectly validate us, to see things just as we do, to perfectly agree with us, and IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, as the kinsman says, I would like to, but if I do, then I abandon MY inheritance, MY birthright, what my Creator put ME in charge of. Ruth 4:6.
So, with no other "kinsman" to be our Help, BOAZ is free to act as our "redeemer". And it doesn't mar HIS inheritance, He is the Template of EVERY ONE OF US, being the Fulness of the Godhead in whom is all the wisdom of the Godhead, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, anything worth a flip in us is in Christ also, and anything not worthy in us, well we don't want to keep it either, burn it off, turn up the flame.
So SM, I forgive you for not agreeing with me. Now if I could only forgive my husband for the same crime. I thought hey he's been through all the stuff I have he should see things the same as me. But it just isn't possible, experience is different for each person, even in the SAME experiences, just because we are each so different to start with.
I think the trouble in "religion" comes when you are TERRIBLY SINCERE. And don't understand it is all just a DEVICE to relieve the LONELINESS that people feel, they invent some kind of agreed-upon standard of significance--and to be meaningful, it has to EXCLUDE SOME PEOPLE, the "flesh" can only understand Good by distinguishing it from the "bad". The flesh is limited in understanding. But the Spirit sees and understands all things, to the pure all things are pure. I'm not claiming purity, I just know the theory. ;)
I was realizing last night, my youngest son is so crazy about movies, well they are "religious experiences", in that two separate beings can sort of have a common shared experience, the movie is like a little "lifetime" and you watch it together and feel "fellowship"--with the people who made the movie also. IF the point of view of the movie overlaps with your own understanding at all. Sometimes some movies make me feel more alone than ever.
And "church". Well, if you can find areas of agreement, it is wonderful to come together with people trying to reach toward Eternity, to think beyond this life for a brief period each week. But it seems to me, before they will embrace you, you have to agree to "forsake all others", to MARRY THEM and rate the rest of the human race as worthless, and I just can't do that anymore. I guess they don't really mean it, they just say it, but I can't even stand to hear people SAY that stuff. To speak that way. I have to stand it though. Or get a divorce. And perhaps endanger the sanity of my youngest son.
Just like you don't tell little kids about the birds and the bees too soon or about death or there's no Santa.
"I don't have time to set SM straight, granted I should give up, but I can't, you know how it is when you've got the urge to force your views on other people in a bad way, and I've got it, I admit it..."
And SM responded (apparently ignoring my slightly tongue in cheek but ok I was telling the truth too):
Yes, the urge to "force" one's views upon others is a negative, detrimental quality that seems to prosper amongst the deeply religious. It's easily their biggest personality flaw!
And I responded (SM is also Matt) as follows, I think it might be of interest here:
I admit it Matt. When I'm not "religious" I'm STILL "religious", I think it comes from just feeling things so INTENSELY.
But somehow you have to recognize that other people have a right to their own feelings also. That is what "Christ" is to me, to be fully in touch with your own vision, given personally and directly from God Himself and yet considerate of the VARIETY that exists within "God" and thus the DIFFERING PERCEPTIONS of other people. As far as you can. Sometimes it comes down to my way or their way, then someone has to DIE, and David the man after God's own heart was the "bloody man", but the Son of David is the Prince of Peace. (Solomon/Christ). And also to be ALIVE and thus still "malleable", able to change and grow, rather than carved in stone like the idols with no eyes no ears no ability to relate or be a blessing to anyone.
Look every man not on his own things, but ALSO on the things of others, Eph 2:4. It's pretty hard considering two opposite things equally, given our intolerance of "cognitive dissonance". I think we must give preference to our own vision, just enough to avoid "stalemate", I think that "golden mean" is the mathematical formula, 1.618etc. So it never feels good, we are either dissing ourselves or someone else, that is being "crucified" to me, but the vertical part of the cross, the part directed toward Truth, is the longest.
It bugs me no end that some translations remove the "also", the NRSV notably. Thus saying, forget all about yourself and only think of the other person. That is not right, to abandon integrity. It is not love for others to have no love for yourself, the fatal flaw in carelessly thought out "religion".
And contrary to the Bible also, "God forbid that I should justify you, till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me." Job 27:5.
I am the only person in the world who knows this you are so lucky to find me lol, but in the book of Ruth, it is an obvious allegory, only the dumbest of the dumb fail to understand this, "Ruth" is the little human seeking reunion with God, "safety", or "salvation". She has lost her natural husband, and is hanging on to her widow-woman motherinlaw trying to stay alive, two losers supporting each other as best they can. Then lo and behold "Boaz" surfaces, he is KIN to them and RICH AS CROESUS, all is well, but first he has to be sure that her "nearer kinsman" cannot take care of her. There are ten elders watching, "the law", or "Righteousness", they are perfectly useless in making any person feel "all right", because there is an abiding Honesty in all of us, we are all like the princess and the pea, uneasy with ANY FLAW WHATSOEVER. And this "nearer kinsman", I believe is our fellow human beings (all other "religious people" think he is "the law" that is hooey, we are no kin to the law, the law is always and ever AGAINST US, Col 2:14). We go to each one and ask them to perfectly validate us, to see things just as we do, to perfectly agree with us, and IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, as the kinsman says, I would like to, but if I do, then I abandon MY inheritance, MY birthright, what my Creator put ME in charge of. Ruth 4:6.
So, with no other "kinsman" to be our Help, BOAZ is free to act as our "redeemer". And it doesn't mar HIS inheritance, He is the Template of EVERY ONE OF US, being the Fulness of the Godhead in whom is all the wisdom of the Godhead, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, anything worth a flip in us is in Christ also, and anything not worthy in us, well we don't want to keep it either, burn it off, turn up the flame.
So SM, I forgive you for not agreeing with me. Now if I could only forgive my husband for the same crime. I thought hey he's been through all the stuff I have he should see things the same as me. But it just isn't possible, experience is different for each person, even in the SAME experiences, just because we are each so different to start with.
I think the trouble in "religion" comes when you are TERRIBLY SINCERE. And don't understand it is all just a DEVICE to relieve the LONELINESS that people feel, they invent some kind of agreed-upon standard of significance--and to be meaningful, it has to EXCLUDE SOME PEOPLE, the "flesh" can only understand Good by distinguishing it from the "bad". The flesh is limited in understanding. But the Spirit sees and understands all things, to the pure all things are pure. I'm not claiming purity, I just know the theory. ;)
I was realizing last night, my youngest son is so crazy about movies, well they are "religious experiences", in that two separate beings can sort of have a common shared experience, the movie is like a little "lifetime" and you watch it together and feel "fellowship"--with the people who made the movie also. IF the point of view of the movie overlaps with your own understanding at all. Sometimes some movies make me feel more alone than ever.
And "church". Well, if you can find areas of agreement, it is wonderful to come together with people trying to reach toward Eternity, to think beyond this life for a brief period each week. But it seems to me, before they will embrace you, you have to agree to "forsake all others", to MARRY THEM and rate the rest of the human race as worthless, and I just can't do that anymore. I guess they don't really mean it, they just say it, but I can't even stand to hear people SAY that stuff. To speak that way. I have to stand it though. Or get a divorce. And perhaps endanger the sanity of my youngest son.
Just like you don't tell little kids about the birds and the bees too soon or about death or there's no Santa.